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  • Incidents or Accidents?

    Incident or Accident

    In a previous thread T Adams has brought forward an interesting point. Are all accidents really an incident and can they be avoided?

    When sh*%$t happens was it really avoidable? In aviation, your # 1 priority is safety!!!

    So lets talk,

    when is an accident an accident? And when is an incident an incident?

    I have some thoughts on this but its getting late.

    Scott Litster
    Bear Tech

  • #2
    Apples and Oranges

    Scott,

    I think the point Mr. Adams is trying to make is, at least, somewhat off base as things pertain to aviation, flying at least.

    I know you guys who work on the airplanes take extraordinary precautions to ensure you don't make a mistake that would cause a disaster, however small it might be... I've watched you guys work and I know you are extremely careful in every detail of what you do..

    Yet, the Bear bears a "scar" of sorts from the exact sort of thing we're talking about here. No matter how hard we imperfect humans try to be, at some point we pull an "Oh $hit" maneuver and something happens.. You know I'm referring to the cut forehead and "DNA evidence" left on the trailing edge of the left wing that happened during the painting process..

    No matter how hard all of us try, we're human and inevitably, we sometimes make errors that lead to "bad things man" sometimes..

    Obviously, in the event that sparked the debate in the other thread, there were mistakes made, *something* terrible happened in the communication link or some horrible misunderstanding took place.... *Something* happened..

    On the subject of your message, I believe the NTSB differentiates between "incident" and "accident" based on the level of damage don't they? It would appear so, at least, in reading their reports. I'm not sure where they draw the line, maybe if it happens when an aircraft is flying, it's an accident if it happens on the ground, it's an incident??

    Anyway, I'm tired too

    Wayne
    Wayne Sagar
    "Pusher of Electrons"

    Comment


    • #3
      NTSB Definition

      An accident is anything where there is major damage or someone is hurt or killed from the time you get in the plane until you get out. This means if you hand prop your single seater with no one in the cockpit and it gets away from you and destroys another airplane, the NTSB does not consider this an accident.

      Here's the specific NTSB definition of an accident from 1998 CFR Title 49, Chapter VIII - NTSB, § 830.2 Definitions:

      Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage.

      They go on to define an incident as pretty much anything else where you've done something stupid or something has broken:

      Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations.

      They also define "substantial damage" used above as:

      Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered ‘‘substantial damage’’ for the purpose of this part.

      Interestingly enough, most gear up landings will not be called an accident according to this definition of substantial damage.
      Jeff Lo
      Biplane race #13 "Miss Gianna"
      Biplane race #6 "Miss Dianne"

      Comment


      • #4
        NTSB Definition

        An accident is anything where there is major damage or someone is hurt or killed from the time you get in the plane until you get out. This means if you hand prop your single seater with no one in the cockpit and it gets away from you and destroys another airplane, the NTSB does not consider this an accident.

        Here's the specific NTSB definition of an accident from 1998 CFR Title 49, Chapter VIII - NTSB, § 830.2 Definitions:

        Aircraft accident means an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage.

        They go on to define an incident as pretty much anything else where you've done something stupid or something has broken:

        Incident means an occurrence other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft, which affects or could affect the safety of operations.

        They also define "substantial damage" used above as:

        Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered ‘‘substantial damage’’ for the purpose of this part.

        Interestingly enough, most gear up landings will not be called an accident according to this definition of substantial damage.
        Jeff Lo
        Biplane race #13 "Miss Gianna"
        Biplane race #6 "Miss Dianne"

        Comment


        • #5
          An interesting thread. I think an accident is avoidable for instance,
          an f-18 at an airshow gets too low and slow on top of an low altitude loop, all parameters are exceeded and luckily the pilot walked away.
          Several f-86's were lost under similar circumstances.
          Some incidents can easily turn into accidents.
          A pilot low on fuel with get-home-itis decides to stretch endurance to the nth degree and ends up short.
          This is much different than a mechanical failure that happens where there is no choice but to land straight ahead.
          Some incidents the PIC makes decisions that are at least questionable, IE inadertant IMC or flight into conditions known to be hazardous where the ego steps in and good decison making exits stage right.
          IT was explained this way.

          All accidents there is a chain of events leading to the accidents, if only one of the parameters were to change the accident would have been prevented.

          Comment


          • #6
            Ok, I somewhat agree??

            Ok, in aviation the line gets very blurred. In industry like the paper industry, which I work, there is no line. EVERY single death, injury, even a tiny paper cut can be traced to a cause and prevented. Believe me this is a HUGE change in the mindset in the paper industry. Paper companies for years had very sorry safety records.

            I have been doing this since 1989, and have investigated my share of incidents. We always start by asking the employee what happened. 90-95% of the time the answer is "Blah, blah, blah, and it just happened." My response is "Did the machine come alive, grab you, did it talk to you, did you lock it out??? Finally they realize they did something careless or stupid, and this is the reason they get hurt.

            Knock on wood, but the plant I work in now, has gone over 2 1/2 yrs. without a lost time accident. (OSHA calls the accidents no matter what).

            Comment

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