Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

[skater]

For my first post here, I have a question. I just found this airplane kit out on the interwebs:

http://www.flugwerk.de/html/page.php?GID=20&SID=5

It's a P-51 replica (or at least a structural kit), and it seems that they claim that it has the P-51's laminar wing profile. If this is a structurally sound and externally identical kit, it looks like it would be a good starting point to build an unlimited air racer "on the cheap" (well, < 1 million, maybe, depending on Merlin, prop, and systems availability), at least cheaper than starting with a 1.7 mil Mustang and converting.

Has anyone expressed interest in this? Does anyone see this being an attractive option to someone who wants to have a shot at the Unlimited division, and is not interested in having an "all numbers match" vintage Mustang?

[stuntflyr]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Will they have a left hand rotation V-12 like the photo on the website?

[skater]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Good catch! I guess it was reversed for composition purposes.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Looks pretty good, but for 1/2-million dollars with no systems, landing gear, control hardware, instruments, radio, instruments, canopy, electrics or that all too scarce V-12 it may be no money saver when finished, especially if you intend it for serious race duty (meaning competitive enough to take on Strega and the Bear, THAT requiring more costly bits and pieces to purchase/install).


What you WILL end up with is a P-51 with a brand-new zero time airframe for possibly the same cost of buying a used Mustang with many miles/hours on it. That makes the deal worthwhile. I don't think it's a way of getting a full-size Mustang on the cheap though.

Using a bit of your scrounging talents, we figure that you can fulfill your dream and fly an all new, yet “exact to the bone”, WWII fighter for less than US $ 750.000,- net

That's quite a claim. I'm good at finding stuff, but finding/buying ALL THAT STUFF you need to complete a Mustang including a low-time Merlin & propeller AND and get it all put together ready to fly for only $250,000? I dunno...

[skater]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

You're absolutely right that you don't get the whole package for that money, and you'll be buying a lot of other stuff. But:

1. If you buy a new aircraft and convert it to a racer, you'll have to buy many of those systems anyway, particularly if you want to race with Strega and Rare Bear.

2. If you want to start from scratch, you're still buying those systems. At least this gives you a starting structural package.

I agree that it won't get you a cheap Mustang. I thought, however, it'd be cheaper to build a Strega lookalike starting with this instead of gutting a 1.7 mil TF-51D, unless you can sell the castoffs to partially cover costs. Also, it might be easier than building something from scratch.

Not that I'm considering doing it myself , but if one wanted to run against Strega and Rare Bear, what would be the most cost-effective way, especially if BoA doesn't lower their asking price on Dago Red?

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

...Not that I'm considering doing it myself , but if one wanted to run against Strega and Rare Bear, what would be the most cost-effective way, especially if BoA doesn't lower their asking price on Dago Red?

I'd assume that if you REALLY are serious on going after the BIG guys, then the cheapest route is the Tsumani method, where YOU (and hopefully volunteers) do all the fab and assembly work and save all that labor-cost money that is usually the biggest part of any bill. This is assuming, of course that you KNOW how to build a race-worthy airframe from scratch already.

[skater]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

I'd assume that if you REALLY are serious on going after the BIG guys, then the cheapest route is the Tsumani method, where YOU (and hopefully volunteers) do all the fab and assembly work and save all that labor-cost money that is usually the biggest part of any bill. This is assuming, of course that you KNOW how to build a race-worthy airframe from scratch already.

'Fraid I don't - I was sick the day they taught that!

I certainly wasn't asking out of any serious intent - just wondering for my own curiosity if the kit would give a builder a shortcut as opposed to starting from scratch, or buying an existing (expensive) airframe. Thanks.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Well, you could use this airframe to build an RW-2800 powered mustang. I think that engine is easier and cheaper to find...

Spacegrrrl

[Big_Jim]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

Well, you could use this airframe to build an RW-2800 powered mustang. I think that engine is easier and cheaper to find...

Spacegrrrl

Cue the ghost of Mike Loening...and go for the 4360 option.

[JET1]

yep...

Cue the ghost of Mike Loening...and go for the 4360 option.

you would have to use something wild to produce the HP that a merlin/griffon produces in racing trim

[RAD2LTR]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

This could be an interesting option if someone wanted to pony up the $$$$$$$$ for a full blown race plane. Since the air frame has to be assembled in the first place, if you know what you are looking to change, perhaps you could spec it in the initial assembly. While you are at it, a Griffon could be spec'd and perhaps a prop off a Firefly (no idea if the blades would be a good profile, but perhaps they could be made to be good.) Adjustments to the C of G could be made, perhaps wing location ect.

Think about it, it might as well be a full custom built one off, so I'd bet they'd be open to "customization" of their product while its on the assembly line. I have a feeling they won't be selling a ton of these, so with relatively low demand, there could be some room to work if the buyer had plans drawn up on what he wanted changed (assuming they are using the original North American plans to build these.)

Perhaps I'm way off target here, but it could be a cool way to go.

Will

[Big_Jim]

Re: yep...

you would have to use something wild to produce the HP that a merlin/griffon produces in racing trim

I used to work with a guy on Loening's crew, and he said that not only did they have the drawings detailing modifying "Miss Salmon River/Boise Bitch" with an R-4360, but they had an engine out back of the hangar.

Unfortunately, they ran out of money and airplane right about at the same time.

[spacegrrrl]

Re: yep...

you would have to use something wild to produce the HP that a merlin/griffon produces in racing trim

Merlin definitely, griffon, not so much. The griffon as a racing engine for aircraft has yet to really work out. I am sure the best race prepped merlins are way past where anyone has gotten a griffon to date. It's my understanding the supercharger on the griffon is the problem. Also they are significantly heavier as I remember.

Now maybe an allison, at one time I know someone converted a mustang to an allison to race. I don't remember what happened with that effort but some folks thought at one time an allison could be prepped to be better than a merlin.

I'm still holding out for the 2800 though, I think that is going to be the next "hot" race engine down the road....

Spacegrrrl

[Big_Jim]

Re: yep...

Merlin definitely, griffon, not so much. The griffon as a racing engine for aircraft has yet to really work out. I am sure the best race prepped merlins are way past where anyone has gotten a griffon to date. It's my understanding the supercharger on the griffon is the problem. Also they are significantly heavier as I remember.

Now maybe an allison, at one time I know someone converted a mustang to an allison to race. I don't remember what happened with that effort but some folks thought at one time an allison could be prepped to be better than a merlin.

I'm still holding out for the 2800 though, I think that is going to be the next "hot" race engine down the road....

Spacegrrrl

I disagree. The Griffon can put out a buttload of horsepower...it's been done before in the hydroplanes, and when it was running right nothing could touch it. 140 inches and 4200 rpm at sustained power. The issue here is that nobody has put the same kind of r&d into it in an air racing capacity. BCIV or Sparrow can comment better as to Big Z's 'point paper' that he did up about using the Griffon.

But lets face it, of the three Mustangs that have used the Griffon in the modern era, the only truly a 'tricked-out' engines were the three Jeff Neff prepared for Whittingon, and after 1988 were never run very hard--the prop system being the limiting factor. From the start, the RB's Griffons were pretty much 'stock', as that was the whole idea...a stock Griffon putting out equivellent horsepower of the 'tricked out' Merlins of the time, which meant less stress on the engine. MAII's Griffons were the 'small' ones, and never had the capacity for the horsepower potential that the 'big' ones in #5 & #09/38 had.

The Allison, as I remember was an aux-stage left over from the Tahoe Miss/Harrahs Club hydroplane team, and the former head wrench/team manager was the one who spearheaded the effort on D'Allasandris's Mustang. But it was tempermental and ultimately they gave up on it before showing any true potential.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Flugwerk AP-51 Palomino for Unlimited?

No one has put the same kind of R&D into a Griffon as has been the Merlin...nor will anyone...ever.

The reason Dave Z used the Griffon (1975) was there were a ton of them for sale for next to nothing, hence the props. (Big Australian sale of Shackelton surplus stuff.) The reason the Whittington's used the Griffon (1988) was that they had some leftover from the next to nothing period, with the props. The reason Miss Ashley had the Griffon (1995) was that the owners had some left over from the next to nothing sales, with the props.
That's 35 years ago, 22 years ago and 15 years ago. All the airplanes were wrecked, the one left is running on empty as far as spares and is parked anyway, and there is no money behind any excited, innovative engine builder's program.

There will be no more R&D on it as there will be no engines with which to do it. No props (or nosecases for the slick 5 blader either, ask any Mk XIV owner) and no dough.

This stuff costs 10 or 20 TIMES more than it has ever cost to do in the past. No stores, no parts, no reserve. WWII was 70 years ago. Too long ago, all the cheap surplus excess stuff is gone.

It's OVER.