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  • Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

    I want to discuss this in a civil manner. I think it is a relavant subject and would appriciate some input.

    The following is my opinion and I would like to hear what those of another opinion have to say about my points.

    This is a discussion forum where people come to learn things. I often will hotlink images I find on the internet to use as reference for topics that are bing discussed. Some folks feel that by doing so I am stealing their work, to which I respond,


    If people are so concerned that their photos only be used in one peice of HTML code and not in another one, there are very simple steps they can take to ensure that happens.

    Posting a hotlinked image is not editing the copyright/watermark out of the photo, and is not claiming the work as my own.

    Photographers need to understand that the internet has changed this game forever and act accordingly if they want to retain the ability to determine where and when their photos can be used.

    If I simply post a link to a website where the photo is found and ask people to go there, look at the photo and then come back here to post about it, would that be kosher in your eyes? If so, what is the real difference in the end result? The photo still appears on the readers monitor, there was just a different URL in the address bar.

    Taking someones elses work and claiming it is your own is one thing. Profiting from someone elses work is another thing. But hotlinking an image in a discussion forum in an attempt to have a discussion about something is neither of those things.


    Again this is my opinion and I would like to hear a response to my points. I am not above having my opinion changed, and if hotlinking images is deemed "not okay" for this forum then I will act accordingly.
    Last edited by flyingjibus; 09-14-2010, 08:56 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

    This is my opinion too. I think you're spot on. But then again, i'm not a photographer so I don't know how I would act if I were in this situation. Links and pics add value to any discussion here and I am one of those that come here to learn and educate myself. Pics directly in the thread make it very easy for me see; simple. Because of my pile of crap computer, a link for pics takes too long to load for me so a lot of times, I won't click them. But this is also my problem and no one elses.
    "CHARLIE DON'T SURF!!!"

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    • #3
      Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

      I agree with you

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

        If you link directly to an image in a forum thread without explicitly stating who took the image, and including their copyright notice, then you ARE implicitly claiming the work as your own!

        Since I don't intend to earn money from my photography, by directly linking to an image of mine, you will have robbed me of the very thing I want out of my photography - for people to enjoy my images, and to KNOW THAT I TOOK THEM.

        IMO, the proper thing to do is to include a link to the photographers site. In this way, everyone know it's not your image, and further, they can identify just who's image it is.

        Now an example: Lets say I have an image on my flickr account that you want to link to. You should NOT link directly to the image. Rather, you should link to the flickr page my image is displayed on. In this way, people know who took it, and they have the change to see other similar images as well.

        In summary, I DO get annoyed if someone links directly to my copyrighted images.

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        • #5
          Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

          Wouln't a simple solution to this be to put your name on the image?

          Many people do this for that simple reason.

          The image that caused this discussion had the authors name on it.

          Eventually the supreme court is going to have to make a ruling to clarify all this stuff and determine what is and isn't public domain in regards to the web.

          As I see it now, once you put your collection of 1's and 0's into the stream that is the web you have entered it into public domain. How you enter it into the stream makes all the difference.

          Additionally I believe that if you read the terms of service on your flickr account, you will find that THEY own the rights to that photo and can do with it as they please.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

            Putting an image onto the web does not, I repeat, DOES NOT enter it into the public domain. There is a TON of copyrighted content on the web. Just because it's on the web, or because the person didn't plaster a water mark across it, does not give you usage rights.

            I don't think the supreme court needs to rule at all. I hold the copyright to any image I take, regardless of what I do with it. In most cases, I'd still retain the copyright even if I sold usage rights to the image.

            Flickr does not claim right to my images. They claim a usage right for display of their image on their site. period. Incidentally, the Flickr terms of service DO preclude "direct linking" to an image on their site.

            As for including a water mark - it's pretty hard to include a watermark that a determined person can't remove. And if you do stick one right across the main subject of the photo, it compromises the artistic integrity of the photo.

            Let me ask you this. Do you think it's right to scan a page from a book, and post it on a forum as your own? Of course not! So why would a copyrighted image taken from the web be any different?

            I don't know what started this discussion. You asked for opinions, and I happen to feel strongly about this subject, so I told you what I think.

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            • #7
              Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

              I am not attacking you, just having a discussion. I see you feel strongly on the subject and I am glad you are particpating in the discussion.

              I think the key here is the term "Usage" I am talking about nothing more then hotlinking. Not plagiarism, Not selling your images, etc

              You said

              There is a TON of copyrighted content on the web. Just because it's on the web, or because the person didn't plaster a water mark across it, does not give you usage rights.
              How is hotlinking to your image changing your intended usage?

              Again I am not talking about taking your photo and then claiming I took it. I am only making a shortcut to your image in the original place YOU put it.

              Hotlinking on a forum is not using YOUR picture in MY website, Its not reproducing your image in some other fashion. Its an HTML code that allows the viewer to see what you did with a few less mouse clicks.

              I don't think the supreme court needs to rule at all. I hold the copyright to any image I take, regardless of what I do with it. In most cases, I'd still retain the copyright even if I sold usage rights to the image.
              I am not disputing that, What I am saying is the supreme court needs to define wether or not Hotlinking is "Reproducing" a copyrighted image or chaging the intended use.

              As for including a water mark - it's pretty hard to include a watermark that a determined person can't remove. And if you do stick one right across the main subject of the photo, it compromises the artistic integrity of the photo.
              Doing that is trying to remove credit from the author of the photo and is not what this discussion is about.

              Let me ask you this. Do you think it's right to scan a page from a book, and post it on a forum as your own? Of course not! So why would a copyrighted image taken from the web be any different?
              No its not right as you have written it. But if I scan a page from a book and post it on the internet in a fashon that is clear that it is taken from that book I think its fine, as long as you are not doing the whole book in an attempt to provide people with the contents of the book without paying the publisher for it.

              Two completely different things.

              I don't know what started this discussion. You asked for opinions, and I happen to feel strongly about this subject, so I told you what I think.
              And I am glad you did. I am not completely blind to your side of this. But as I said before, if this is something that you feel that strongly about, why not publish the pictures to the web in a way that they cannot be hotlinked?
              Last edited by flyingjibus; 09-14-2010, 11:00 AM.

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              • #8
                Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                I have a question for the masses and their opinion on the following. First off, let me say, that I am not a professional photographer, so I have no dog in this hunt.


                How about the following scenario:

                1) Hotlink to the photo in question, so somebody can have quick, easy access to a photo which illustrates or clarifies some information about a topic discussion on a thread.

                2) Either right above, or right below the picture, give credit to the photographer or website and then a link to where the picture was obtained from.

                What about this? Would this satisfy everyone? I know that I will sometimes NOT click on a link when a picture is not "hot-linked" because of several reasons:

                a) Some websites are extremely slow to load. My big pet peeve is extremely heavy flash graphics on a website. If I have to wait to load that crap, I'll just back out of that website right away.

                b) Some websites use extremely slow servers due to either the servers being used to overcapacity or just being antiquated and in need of upgrade.

                c) Sometimes, it is difficult to find the original picture on the website, as one has to "wade through" lots of other junk to get there. Again, this takes time.

                I honestly don't think most people are trying to "steal" pictures or claim/imply they took some pictures themselves. For most, it's a convenience/ease of use/time-saving measure.

                Opinions?

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                • #9
                  Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                  Interesting discussion. It seems something has been largely discussed outside this community and one that seems to have an emotional component for a lot of people.

                  I found this discussion of the topic that I think makes an intersting case that hotlinking is basically core to what the web world of the internet is about.

                  Dvorak responds to hotlinking theft claims

                  I know in my case I'd be happy with anything would drive traffic to a site I owned but I can understand concerns for content rights.

                  I'll tell you, this whole crazy intertube thing can make things complicated... :-)

                  Spacegrrrl

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                  • #10
                    Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                    Is it the picture taker "needing" to have absolute credit thats in question?

                    Or is it enjoying the topic and pics that are at hand in a particular discussion?

                    I guess on one had the picture taker shouldnt be posting something he might wish to "sell" or "privatize"?

                    Or are we all here to enjoy the races, and everything involved around them?

                    Or did someone offend someone else in wordings r sumthin?

                    Just trying to fully understand.

                    I can only speak for me in this, and I'm not massively dumb, but also human myself...

                    Ah hell, I'll just keep to myself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                      As far as I'm concerned, I agree that once a picture is on the web, its fair game. I really don't care what some clueless lawmaker has passed as "rules" concerning copyrights, that is how I feel. Just because there is a law doesn't mean its just or right or I have to agree with. If you don't want people to use "your" photography, don't put it out there. Keep it to yourself. If you want to "share" history that you happen to be lucky enough to capture, make it available. Take whatever measures you need to ensure nobody makes money off of your work, otherwise, show it off. I get sick (and tired) every time someone complains about an image being "infringed" upon. Big deal. If that is your lively-hood, fine, do what you need to do to protect that. Like was said, don't make it available and there won't be a problem. Personally, I don't take pictures to make money from, so every one I post is free for all to enjoy and share. If I happen to photographically catch something that is interesting or pleasing to look at, I'm happy to share that moment with others so they can feel like they were there - no alterior or financial motives involved.
                      My $.02
                      Tommy

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                      • #12
                        Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                        Thanks for all the photos that make me love the sport more, especially when I am surfing inSTEAD of being there.

                        There is a very small group of people that follow Air Racing (everyone else are weird) and to make money is very hard as some of you have seen.

                        When I printed up my UNLIMITED Air Race coloring book I paid $2.50 each for the copies and hoped to get $5.00. Add in advertising, peddling etc. and you can see profit was not a driver.

                        I like drawing and I like drawing cartoon sketches of Race Planes the most, and I use photos, sketches and other tools for reference. I have had crews scan and print sketches on shirts and think it is great when they do.

                        Everyone will have different opinions about copyrights, but in the case of Air Race stuff like what we are all doing here-, heck with it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                          While I am glad that others agree with me I suspect that those on the other side of the fence are all out taking the pictures we are talking about right now as we speak!

                          It might be a few days before we can hear from them. Photog's please dont take the onslought of support for my side to mean we dont want to hear yours...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                            Actually "hotlinking" of an image that is not yours and in an account you own where this is allowed... is not an acceptable procedure...

                            Linking to the image or better yet, the page it is on is the acceptable method.

                            Hope everyone can understand the reasons for this.. (which I don't have time to spell out right now.)

                            Wayne Sagar
                            "Pusher of Electrons"

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                            • #15
                              Re: Hotlinking images, a civil discussion

                              Originally posted by marada mx3 View Post
                              As far as I'm concerned, I agree that once a picture is on the web, its fair game. I really don't care what some clueless lawmaker has passed as "rules" concerning copyrights, that is how I feel. Just because there is a law doesn't mean its just or right or I have to agree with. If you don't want people to use "your" photography, don't put it out there. Keep it to yourself....
                              Tommy,

                              Doesn't really matter what you think. Copyright laws exist and use of an artist's creation without permission is copyright infringement. Ask any webmaster what action is taken when they are notified that copyright protected material is being displayed without permission on a website that they are responsible for. It is taken seriously.

                              If you want to use a photo taken by someone else show some courtesy and ask them first. Nine times out of ten they will allow you to use a downsized low res version provided you acknowledge who took the picture.

                              Lance

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