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MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

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  • MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

    JUST FOR FUN.... zoom zoom

    Givens

    1. using a current military jet.... f16 or 22 or russian model???
    2. Max ab thrust
    3. projected (sustainable G forces) for a pilot
    4. flying in a big circle approximating the unlimited course

    What would a best guess on...
    1. ac type
    2. g forces
    3. average speed
    4. above or below the sound barrier


    JUST 4 FUN

    Feed back

    Bill Marsh

  • #2
    Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

    F22
    6 G's
    700 kts
    above


    Now, how do we prove if we're right?

    Don

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

      I think the JSF (f-35?) would be a good canidate for this. My guess is it would be able to pull a tighter circle with less G's due to having only one vectored engine.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

        Originally posted by flyingjibus
        I think the JSF (f-35?) would be a good canidate for this. My guess is it would be able to pull a tighter circle with less G's due to having only one vectored engine.
        I have my son in law coming to my retirement party this weekend...I'll quiz him on the JSF vs. the F-22.....he works on both at Palmdale....I'll squeeze him for enough info, but stop short of him having to kill me once I know........LOL

        With the 22....I'm feeling a 800+ lap with the right pilot and vectored thrust....but the 35 has some advantages that could put it ahead....



        film at eleven.......
        Went Fast, Forgot to Turn Left, Saw God!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

          How about the Harrier using the Viffing technique while at knife edge. Rad

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

            IS THE G FORCES THE LIMITATION?

            Remember indy a few years back (tire testing)..... too much sustained g forces causing driver problems?

            Is this vectored thrust thinggy .... good for airframe forces or just as bad for sustained g problems

            BM

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

              Thurst vectoring is not a FAST way to make a turn. It changes heading very quickly, but it has no relation to forward velocity or G force.

              A J-3 Cub can turn the crap out of a Raptor - check it out sometime - see who can make a 360-degree turn faster and see whose turn circle is the smallest. But...get those two on the course and see who gets around that 9 mile circle the fastest.

              Now let's compare the SR-71 and the Raptor. The SR-71 can blow the doors off the Raptor in a straight line, but it has NOTHING in the turn rate or turn radius department.

              We are concerned NOT about the size of the turn circle (which is what thrust vectoring helps with), but the speed at which the airplane goes AROUND that circle.

              The only way you can turn tight and go fast is with G. Remember that little thing called inertia? What gets an airplane over that inertia is G and thrust.

              This is ALL about P-sub-S, or "Specific Excess Thrust" as compared to the rate/radius performance of the aircraft. John Boyd kind of stuff -- the types of things that engineers spend countless hours crunching when they have designed fighters in the modern era.

              So, how does this all relate to the question at hand?

              The airplane that can pull the MOST G with the MOST EXCESS THRUST is the one that will go around the course the fastest.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                Originally posted by Bill Marsh
                IS THE G FORCES THE LIMITATION?

                Remember indy a few years back (tire testing)..... too much sustained g forces causing driver problems?

                Is this vectored thrust thinggy .... good for airframe forces or just as bad for sustained g problems

                BM
                That was Texas motor speedway and the drivers were browning out twice each lap. They stopped the testing and are now using a much harder tire.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                  John Boyd?! I thought AF policy required you guys to pretend he never existed. Hope you haven't breached security. "Bigger and more complex wins contracts!" To heck whether it can win a dog fight or not.
                  No pixels were harmed, honest.

                  http://www.ignomini.com
                  http://www.pbase.com/ignomini

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                    Originally posted by Randy Haskin
                    So, how does this all relate to the question at hand?

                    The airplane that can pull the MOST G with the MOST EXCESS THRUST is the one that will go around the course the fastest.
                    I bet you know which one it is and you're not telling
                    _________
                    -Matt
                    Red Bull has no earthly idea what "air racing" is.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                      At the NAG Banquet a few years ago Skip said an F-16 couldn't go around the course as fast as Dago, and after watching Skip do it in Dago, I believe!...D.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                        Originally posted by chixfly2
                        sliderule
                        Just for fun...

                        If we have an airplane that can do it...

                        If we round out the unlimited course to a circle, 8.5 mi. diameter...

                        If we pull 6 Gs all the way around...

                        speed = 1200 kts.

                        (from Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators)

                        John the geek

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                          Originally posted by Randy Haskin

                          The airplane that can pull the MOST G with the MOST EXCESS THRUST is the one that will go around the course the fastest.
                          Agree with you Randy on this. And I like the question Bill.

                          I think drag would be a factor to consider also. If all else were equal (thrust/G's) I would take it that the aircraft with the least drag (an F-16 would have an advantage over a Delta wing like a Mirage 2000 at high AOA) would have an advantage. That would be a Factor in the excess thrust factor re: above I guess.

                          Personally think that the "pilot" who can take the most sustained G would be more likely to be the winning factor than the Airframe (don't want to think about where the pilot who blacks out would be). If it was a race it would be the factor to worry about but for one lap maybe it's not long enough to be too much of a problem. Most current Jets have a similar Max G loading, although I believe that The Russian & French Aircraft have "soft" G limits that can be overridden for a short time. Doesn't do the aircraft any good though, I know a pilot who flew a Hawker Hunter that's flying days are no longer due to over stressing the airframe with too much G.

                          So my bets would be to an Aircraft with High excess Thrust, Low Drag and high G loading. Would be a good challenge between an F-22 and the Su-47 with the latest generation motors that the Russians have. Sort of like the Bear vs Dago, radials vs inlines.

                          Next the Eurofighter running with the latest Flanker series (think Dreadnought vs Red Baron vs Critical Mass)

                          Then the rest of the field with F-16/Rafales/Mig 29's/Hornets/Chinese jets etc.

                          A race like that I would totally Love to see.

                          How about someone giving us a rough estimate and run those aircraft in the latest X plane or Flight Simulator X. Maybe not 100% accurate but give a bit of an idea how they go against each other.

                          So I'll go for the underdog, Su 47, Supersonic lap at Max G's

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                            Now this is a Moment when we REALLY Need "The Twidge"...D.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: MAX lap record around the RaRa course????

                              Originally posted by Bob
                              That was Texas motor speedway and the drivers were browning out twice each lap....

                              Did they run into the walls? How do you pull that many G's in a car?
                              WTF...over

                              Paul

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