Escape systems for aircraft

[zeke]

With the Sad news concerning Steve Brown (my prayers go out to the family and friends), and with posts concerning the number pilots tragically lost in aviation accidents, is it time to consider escape methods other than going down with the aircraft or having to parachute over the side.

Reading the account of bailing out of the Super Corsair by Kevin Eldridge, the parameters for a successful bail out are narrow at low altitude and even then it is no guarantee of freedom from a major injury (as was the case for Kevin).

Here are some possibilities I know of,

A ballistic chute, as fitted to a number of aircraft (such as Cirrus).
I know there are weight and speed issues, but a number of VLJ's are planning on them being fitted.

Here's one of the companies that makes them;

http://brsparachutes.com/default.aspx

A system as fitted to some aerobatic aircraft. i believe that in an Aero Gp race 2 aircraft collided, one pilot was killed and another was able to eject using such a seat (not rocket propelled, I think it's pnuematic ) That was at low altitude and in a race (ok not a reno style pylon race but it is a race with multiple aircraft on the course at the same time so it's still an air race). The system worked in a low altitude air race environment.

Here's a photo of it operating on a Su 29

http://www.zvezda-npp.ru/english/05.htm

Don't know it's speed parameters, but I'm sure it's not going to be fun to try and bail out the side at over 400mph in a normal escape either. i also remember some similar system was fitted to t-28s + skyraiders in vietnam


Or maybe an ex military seat fitted to an aircraft. Don't know about any leaglities on it, but there must be a number of seats out there available, such as from L-39s, Migs etc.

So why don't more aircraft have some form of emergency system? Any thoughts on the pros and cons of various options. What's everybody's thoughts on this?

When it comes down to it aircraft are replaceable, people aren't. A number of years ago my father was in an accident that could have almost killed him at work, if he had used proper equipment it wouldn't have happened. Is it a an idea who's time has come for air racing? the military have been using it for decades, and now many civil aircraft also.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Like anything, money is the answer.

Anything involving a parachute and a way to extract a pilot from the cockpit is EXPENSIVE, and requires periodic inspection and change of time-change components (pyrotechnics, mostly).

Don't forget about the training portion...like what is a pilot supposed to do when he pulls the handles and suddenly finds himself a parachutist? Military pilots have to to ejection seat and parachute training every 6 months.

There are plenty of options out there, but for the majority of airplane owners they are just not financially feasable for the level of risk involved.

You won't find any bigger proponent of flight safety than me...I have lost numerous friends to aviation accidents and I wholesale buy in to safety culture. Life is precious, yes...but if we really cared about safety above all else we would never start the engine or turn a wheel.

[zeke]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

There are plenty of options out there, but for the majority of airplane owners they are just not financially feasable for the level of risk involved.

Like many things, it's the Risk to Reward verses the Cost factors. I never want to discourage people following there passion for flying, just like many others hate to see anybody lose there lives while they chase there dreams.

Hopefully the cost of some of the systems can come down, or aren't to prohibitive. Although you can never put a price on a person's life, and I don't believe we should, many escape systems I imagine would actually be cost effective from the long term view. How much does it cost for each fatal accident or serious injury in terms of search & rescue, hospitalization, rehabilitation, time off work, the effects for family and those supported by the person injured, increased insurances, etc. As in the case for Kevin Eldridge and the Super Corsair, even if the system cost 10's of thousands of dollars, I'm sure that would be cheaper in the long term without the costs of recovering from those injuries that he sustained.

Sure it is another cost for the pilots/owners who already face many expensive costs, but maybe it isn't as expensive as is thought when you look at it from a different perspective. With all the Ballistic chutes fitted to aircraft, even to ultralights and gliders, they can't be that prohibitively expensive. Maybe not able to handle unlimiteds but should be able to cope with sports class, biplanes etc.

[mayday51]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

I do beleive this topic has been ground up before.
Do an archive search here.

good idea (save the pilot)

no known working application for this situation.


(IIRC)

[Skyracer]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Consider this:

In air racing, how many pilots have hit the silk?

How many are no longer with us (lost in the ensuing crash) who could have and didn't?

How many are no longer with us (lost in the ensuing crash) who should have and couldn't?

How many are still with us who should have and couldn't?

[zeke]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

I do beleive this topic has been ground up before.
Do an archive search here.

(IIRC)

Here's the articles, it's worth the read for all the pilots out there.

http://aafo.com/racing/tech/seats/

Skyracer,

I don't know how many have been injured or killed in airracing, for the type of flying there seems to be few accidents and I don't know of anyone who has just flown into the ground.

Also consider how many have been injured or killed in racers or warbirds but in a non racing situation (tsumnai, pond racer,etc) and warbird pilots such as Mark Hannah. If they had a system that could have saved them, many great pilots may still be with us.

[Skyracer]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Also consider how many have been injured or killed in racers or warbirds but in a non racing situation (tsumnai, pond racer,etc) and warbird pilots such as Mark Hannah. If they had a system that could have saved them, many great pilots may still be with us.

I agree with you on this, and there was no intent to take away from the concept and potential saving of valuable lives. My point was that there have been very few (I believe the only one in the last 25 years was Kevin at Phoenix) pilots in air racing (possibly in warbirds as a category) who used the bailout option. I've witnessed two others who could have and didn't, and a few who couldn't (and a spring loaded seat would not have made a difference). So, maybe it is training, maybe attitude or judgement, maybe something that goes along with the warbird/air racing mystique, but there is something that keeps the pilot in the seat to the end when they should have left.

Having done my time in the USAF, and witnessed a "zero-zero" lifesaving ejection from an F4 (the pilot made it but the GIB did not), there is no substitute for the yellow handles when you need them. Keep in mind though, there is a lot more to a successful ejection than a kick in the butt to get you past the canopy rails.

[zeke]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

maybe it is training, maybe attitude or judgement, maybe something that goes along with the warbird/air racing mystique, but there is something that keeps the pilot in the seat to the end when they should have left.

Something I've thought too. It's a bit surprising to me, as during the war bailouts for many reasons where common (enemy damage and mechanical problems). I'm sure it's not just because of the low altitude that a warbird is often flown at, as often there is enough speed available to gain sufficient altitude. Maybe it's the attitude being different to a military environment .

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

So, maybe it is training, maybe attitude or judgement, maybe something that goes along with the warbird/air racing mystique, but there is something that keeps the pilot in the seat to the end when they should have left.

Seems pretty obvious to me...it's the cost of the airplane and who is writing the checks.

Personally, I have no remorse about sending a sick F-15E back to the taxpayers. I have nothing in particular financially vested in any of those specific airframes. In the AF we say that "the decision to eject is made while you're on the ground", meaning that we train to a certain set of circumstances under which I'm going to punch out, period. Some of those circumstances I may be able to milk the jet back or try a risky landing to "save" the jet. The AF says, "no, you're worth WAY more than the airplane, so get out of it".

On the other hand, if I choose to step out of somebody's Mustang that is wounded or on fire, I have to look that owner in the eye once I get back on the deck. Then, that owner gets to talk to his insurance company and/or his accountant. I'm a hero if I brought that beautiful machine back to the ground, but I'm a zero if I destroy it.

[MRussell]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Having done my time in the USAF, and witnessed a "zero-zero" lifesaving ejection from an F4 (the pilot made it but the GIB did not), there is no substitute for the yellow handles when you need them.

Would you care to elaborate just a bit on this example? I'm dying with curiosity.

[Skyracer]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Mid sixties; overseas training base. F-4 landed close behind an F-100. F-100 blew a MLG tire, F-4 attempted a post touchdown go-around. Hit the burners, sucked the gear up, settled onto the runway and slid under the F-100 (right wing under the F-100 left wing). The whole thing was on fire and still sliding when the F-4 pilot ejected; the GIB did not (the seat didn't come out of the plane possibly due to crash damage). When the wreckage came to a halt, the F-100 pilot blew his canopy off, bailed over the rightside, and made it off the end of the wing with minor injuries. About half the F-4's we saw at the base had Martin-Baker zero-zero seats installed, and this was one of them.

[Radial LuvR]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Another consideration may be a HANS device, like in NASCAR. Those guys hit walls at 200 miles per hour and step out and dust themselves off. Not that air racing is like NASCAR, but if your gonna go down with the plane, anything to prevent or minimize injury, I think, would help.

[Skyracer]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

I don't think the HAAS device would work too good in air racing as the head MUST be on a swivel all the time. The HAAS device restricts head movement quite a bit.

[Apteryx]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

PACKING PEANUTS

me

[georgiacub]

Re: Escape systems for aircraft

Is this a video of Kevin Eldridge and his Corsair?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9161106816384837258