Super Sonic question?? hey randy

[tex-fan]

Ok I've wondered this for a long time, so now I'm going to ask. There are several planes capable of super snoic speeds in priviate hands. Courtesy has now got a SAAB J35 DRAKEN for sale, there are a couple of F-100s out there at least 2 F104s, and a few T38s and some Mig-21s in private hands. So the question is, where can a pilot like Skip, John, hoot, or Randy Haskin or any body else with that type or rating go out and break the sound barrier with out getting their ticket pulled? I hope you see this post Randy, I think your the one with the answer.

[race9]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Over the ocean?

[spacegrrrl]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Generally folks with planes that can exceed mach one go out over the ocean to do it. I know at one time there was someone that would sell rides in a Folland Gnat and take you out over the Pacific and go supersonic. The only actual restriction for supersonic over land is the sound pressure of the sonic boom. There have been several suggestions that a properly designed airframe with lowering the pressure wave as a goal could go supersonic over land which no leagal issue.

Michele

[Blue Foam]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Provided the FAA has been informed, the MOA's (military operations areas) are acceptable places. Overpressure also decreases with the square of the distance and the air density that it is created in, so flying at high altitude reduces the "boom" to a weak double-thud. I was at the SR-71 retirement ceremony at the Edwards show years back and the 72,000 ft. Mach 3.0 flyover "boom" was anticlimactic at best.

[Unregistered]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Years ago British Airways would occasionaly do SuperSonic private charter flights using Concord airplanes.

Saw one that departed Waco Texas at the start of the Waco airhsow. It went out over the Gulf and flew to with-in viewing range of Cuba and came back and landed before the end of the airshow.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Outside the 12NM limit over the water, you can go supersonic 'till your heart's content as a civil pilot. My understanding is that going super over the CONUS in a civil aircraft requires specific permission and coordination with the FAA. I'm sure the Mojave civil test pilot school guys do it, as well as others -- but you can't just go hop in your Starfighter with an N-number and go supersonic.

In the USAF, our internal regs say that we have to be 15NM from land, above 10,000', and headed away from land. There is also an LOA that USAF aircraft can go supersonic above FL300, but that is in certain designated supersonic corridoors. Super is NOT okay in the MOA...hitting the number while in a MOA means that the pilot has to come back and file a Sonic Boom report, which I'm guessing goes to the FAA.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Hey Randy, something I've always wanted to know... since it was such a hard thing way back when CY first did it and it's done every day now, can you even tell when you go past Mach 1 in a modern jet or is the mach meter your only indication..

Thanks..

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Hey Randy, something I've always wanted to know... since it was such a hard thing way back when CY first did it and it's done every day now, can you even tell when you go past Mach 1 in a modern jet or is the mach meter your only indication..

Thanks..

It depends...

If you're flying straight-and-level, hitting the number is very benign. In fact, the only real indication that the pitot boom has gone super is that it will cause all the pitot-static instruments to jiggle for a second.

When maneuvering, it's VERY evident when you're supersonic or subsonic. The best analogy I can come up with is like a speedboat when it's up on the step vs slower. Turns and rolls are sluggish due to the supersonic airflow -- it feels like you're driving a boat on the step.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

It depends...

If you're flying straight-and-level, hitting the number is very benign. In fact, the only real indication that the pitot boom has gone super is that it will cause all the pitot-static instruments to jiggle for a second.

When maneuvering, it's VERY evident when you're supersonic or subsonic. The best analogy I can come up with is like a speedboat when it's up on the step vs slower. Turns and rolls are sluggish due to the supersonic airflow -- it feels like you're driving a boat on the step.

Interesting stuff... In A2A do you very often manuver over Mach1? Back of my mind, I'm remembering something about "corner velocity" back in the flight sim days... For sure don't know how accurate that stuff was but if I remember right, best corner speed was fairly slow.

What's the fastest you've flown or is that classified

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Interesting stuff... In A2A do you very often manuver over Mach1?

In a beyond-visual-range missile engagement, going supersonic is good for the missiles. In a dogfight, going super is...not good, heh heh.

Back of my mind, I'm remembering something about "corner velocity" back in the flight sim days... For sure don't know how accurate that stuff was but if I remember right, best corner speed was fairly slow.

It's in the neighborhood of 400 knots, give or take. It can be as slow as about 350, depending on if your plane of motion is horizontal, vertical, or somewhere in between.

If you look at an Energy-maneuverability diagram (this is a T-38 diagram), it shows where that best velocity is. What you're looking at here is turn rate plotted against airspeed. Where the peak is ("A") is the best instantaneous corner velocity.

What's the fastest you've flown or is that classified

Fastest indicated airspeed = 680 KCAS at 500' AGL out at Tonopah, and that was about 1.3 Mach. This is a photo of that run.



Fastest Mach number was only up around 1.6. The F-15E has a HUGE drag component because of all those pods and bomb racks. It is capable of much faster, but I haven't been there.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

It's amazing how technical the life of a fighter pilot is today! I dont' know why they seem so bent on single seat fighters when the two seater seems to make so much more sense...

Anyway... fun stuff, thanks for sharing..

Do you miss the action now that you're instructing?

Wayne

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Do you miss the action now that you're instructing?

Wayne

As we speak I'm going back through the F-15E re-qualification course, and I'll be headed over to the UK in a couple months...it's keeping me from Reno this year.

[Eric]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Sorry to hear you cant make it to Reno this year. The AF kept me away for a few years also. Are you heading over to Lakenheath? I should be at Geilenkirchen Germmany around March time. Take care!

[Ken Dwelle]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

Hey Wayne-

I know I'm going to piss off Randy, but he's a bro and will understand...

"I dont' know why they seem so bent on single seat fighters when the two seater seems to make so much more sense..."

Reason's to fly single seat:

10. Your landings are always perfect.

9. You always get to fly with your favorite pilot.

8. You never have to smell the back seater's farts.

7. You never have to listen to any whining about the temperature because it's always set how YOU want it.

6. 1,300# more gas.

5. You never miss a radio call because someone is talking.

4. The radar is always pointed where you want it.

3. You don't have to share stick time.

2. You don't have to justify your actions in the air (decision by committee).

1. Because you can!

The WSO's (Weapon System Operators(Back Seaters)) will piss and moan about how much better life is with two in the cockpit, but in my experience (3 years at Mtn Home working with the F-15E guys) the intercockpit coordination in a two seat fighter was VERY difficult to get right. I never had to tell myself where to point the radar, or ask about the timing or navigation solution. When you are by yourself, coordination and decision making are as fast as your brain can fire. Randy can speak better to the advantages of two seat than I can, as I never did it. The single seat community is very proud of the fact that they do it all by themselves, but it is challenging. I vividly recall flying my first mission with the HTS (Harm Targeting System) pod on an F-16. It was a 4v4 LOWAT mission then on to the range to work the pod against the threats. I was at 500', flying and fighting as a wingman, running the radar on one MFD and the HTS pod on the other and it took every bit of brainpower I had. I landed from that mission and remarked that someone was going to drill a hole in the ground real soon doing that. With experience it got easier, and that's what made single seat fun. I was ALWAYS challenged in the air. It was very satisfying to get it right, and if you didn't, well you knew who to blame.

After 1,600 hours of single seat jet time, I am firmly in the single seat camp, but that's all I know. Dad flew single (F-106) and two seat (F-4) jets, and he never misses an opportinity to harsh on what a POS the F-4 was, (too many seats). So take that for what it's worth.

Randy, your turn...

Ken

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Super Snoic question?? hey randy

LOL.. Ken... "your favorite pilot" I love it!!

Hey, you going to make Reno this year??

Can't remember if I saw you on the list or not..

Talked with "Dialtapper" yesterday, he's got a gig there, so I figger you're not going to race??

Hope you ALL come up for a few days anyway (if you don't)

Wayne