Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

[Bill Marsh]

This is a good a/c g**gle site to dispell mis-information

Soooo....
Friends of mine have been batting around for years about the real lineage roots on the AM6 zero and ,i do believe the double row radial that may have powered it.

Key words tossed around ....

1 / wanted europe or usa contracts to build fighters or just designs
2 / wanted finished designs delivered to them
3 / wanted or copied designs from w/c or p/w or ?? for a high performance double row radial for licencing to (Kawasaki?)

Pls. some one with really happened settle this "issue".

thanks
bm

[laminar]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

I read about BMW blueprinting the 2800 for the 801, thats all I know about that though

A company called vintage carbeurators in tehachapi california is currently rebuilding a Sakae engine for an original zero. They have been doing alot of research on the topic they may be the ones to ask. I can't find their number right now. They are associated with Vintage V-12s and are located right next door so that may be the way to find them.

[Hawkeye]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

The BMW 801 was closer to the Wright R-2600 than the P&W R-2800.
Both the 801 and 2600 were 14 cylinder designs with the BMW displacing 2560 ci. The P&W 2800 was 18cylinders.

[matt]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

i always wondered what ci the 801 was, too, i believe the sakae 21 was a 14 cylinder design aswell.

[BadIdea]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

Here is a pic of what I remember to be one under construction.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

GEEK QUIZ:

The first 2 Zero prototypes (A6M1) had a 14-cyl engine from a different manufacturer rather than the Nakajima Sakae found in the production A6M2's. Name that engine...

(Use of the internet and your favorite search engine is allowed )

[tdecibel]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

I think the Sakai was similar to the R-1830. If I recall correctly the Confederate Air Force A6M was running an 1830. As far as the airframe goes, the design seems to be just a japanese interpretation of where the state of the art of monoplane fighters was at in the mid-1930s. I've read that the Zero was a knock-off of the Hughes H-1 racer, but I'm not so sure that tells the entire story. I think that the japanese designers must have been greatly influenced by German designs such as the Bf-109, which was then one of the few operational monoplane fighters in service, and with a country that was politically aligned. Note the gun placement on both fighters. The fact that the Zero has a radial engine may have been just a pragmatic decision on the part of the Mitsubishi engineers in that the engine was available and since it was air-cooled, resulted in a simple and very light-weight airplane.

The U.S. was a bit behind the curve as far as fielding an operational high-performance monoplane fighter in 1936-40. American fighter design tended to favor well-armored and powerful airplanes with lots of guns as the war progressed.

[sparky]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

The first ones used a Mistubishi engine of about 780-790 Hp.

Sparky

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

The first ones used a Mistubishi engine of about 780-790 Hp.

Sparky

That's the one.

It (A6M1) was powered by a Mitsubishi Zuisei 13 fourteen-cylinder, twin-row air-cooled radial engine, rated at 780 hp for takeoff and 875 hp at 11,810 feet. This engine was later known under the unified JNAF/JAAF designation scheme as the Ha.31/13.

The speed of the A6M1 was 305 mph at 12,470 feet, which was slightly below the requirement, so on May 1, 1939, the Navy ordered Mitsubishi to install the Nakajima NK1C Sakae 12 (Prosperity) engine in the third prototype and subsequent aircraft. The Sakae 12 (Ha.35/12) engine was also a fourteen-cylinder twin-row air-cooled radial and was only slightly larger and heavier than the Zuisei despite its higher power.

The re-engined aircraft was designated A6M2. The first Sakae-powered A6M2 began flight testing on December 28, 1939.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=wwii-plane.htm&url=http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/a6m.html

[paul(oz rb fan)]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

the zero was in it's designer's words as original as any fighter of the time, he claimed no designer was doing his job proplerly if he didn't look at the other aircraft around at any given. time but the only items that were of major influence were the undercarrige (from the vought v143 iirc)and the cowl fasteners (also from vought).
in the early 70's classic wings had an interview with hirkoshi who designed the a6m and was asked about howard hughes's claim that it was a copy of the hughes h1 and he laughed saying noway.
the nakajima sakae was a devopment of an earlyer single row radial (used in both the ki27 and the a5m claude iirc)
paul

[sparky]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

Can I call myself a "Geek" now?

Sparky

[Bill Marsh]

IMO the origional thread question I asked is a "NO"

Great dialog.... but with nothing uncovered as per my 1st question.....

# 1 The airplane......

On evidence that the "west" a/c manufacturers were contracted my Japan to design, build, reverse engineer, sell drawings, licence, contract build or what ever... a monoplane fighter for the pre-war rising sun jaf.

# 2 Twin row recips.......

ditto the above for radials


Once again, a good G**gle fact finding event, thanks

BM

[h34race]

Re: Origins of Zero a/c and its Kawasaki motors

Sirs I read somewere about amealya airheart, when she was shot down or was it captured?thay recovered the plane and copied the engines to put on the zero along with some aspects of the airplane,can anyone recall?think I heard it at chino air show from the "OLD GUYS"that really know stuff.I rember them saying you could see the pratt witney casting emblem just faintly in the casting. now be nice fellas I love this forum and NO I didn't stay at a holiday inn last night