Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Stiletto Questions.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Stiletto Questions.

    Okay, I'm a bit curious about a few things. The Mustang, Stiletto has to be one of the most unique and interesting highly modified racers to grace the pylons over the years, and though I sorta know the basic history there are some serious questions I have. And I'm pretty sure you all can enlighten me.

    Now where to begin.. I read that Stiletto, despite the modifications and fast qualifying times it never did race well, Is this true? If so why? How effective was the modifications in regards to the removal of the belly scope and replacement by the intakes on the leading edges of the wings? I'm pretty sure it would've saved quite a bit of weight and had a positive impact on the aerodynamics of the aircraft. I do have some related questions, but I might save those for another thread.

    I also read that it'd originally been intended to mount a Griffion, I forget which model.. but this was never achieved for various reasons, I assume financial. Is this bit true?

    And Generally, How much potential did Stiletto have? I know of its unfortunate sell and conversion back to stock, but I don't know that much about its design and racing history I'm afraid. So, I'd really appreciate it if someone could shed some light on these questions as well as tell me anything else that might be of interest.

    I've been kinda reading over various highly modified Unlimited to get an idea of what might be the ultimate Mustang Racer, I might start another thread so we can have a good debate on this, I love reading about the design aspects, concepts people might have and all of it. Plus, we need something to occupy our time here until Reno Right?

  • #2
    Re: Stiletto Questions.

    Originally posted by RobertLawson
    I know of its unfortunate sell and conversion back to stock, but I don't know that much about its design and racing history I'm afraid.
    I don't think that it was ever stock to begin with (put together from parts?) but I'm the wrong one to answer questions. Now where are those geeks?

    Jarrod

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Stiletto Questions.

      Spoke to Art Teeters some years ago.
      He said he was glad to get the center section back to return it to stock.

      He remarked that they weren't able to use much of what was there for the rebuild to stock, but the owner wanted it drilled apart and put back to stock.

      Apparently his shop had built it up originally using a minimum amount of metal and he was glad to take it off the market.

      Tom

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Stiletto Questions.

        The story I heard was that in the early nineties, when the total boil-off cooling system with no air intakes in the wing was used, it was extremely fast.
        Apparently Matt Jackson leased the airplane from Alan Preston and used the plan by Pete Law to reduce the cooling drag to zero, making the wings into boilers.
        Matt had the misfortune of having a jet for the ADI water metering installed before the race push out a thread (helicoil?), in which it turned to and nearly plugged the orfice of the jet. No matter how well everything worked, the flow was retarded and the engine's induction temperature was exceeded whenever race power was used. The airplane was a sure bet to win, in his estimation, but without the ability to use the proper amount of ADI flow, race power could not be used and it could not compete.
        Sadly the airplane was to become something else soon afterwards, and never was to race with the boil-off system again.
        Just what I heard, I'm sure some body will say it is BS.
        Chris...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Stiletto Questions.

          There was a guy named Anson Johnson, who raced in the Cleveland Air Races in 1949 with a P51D, that removed the oil & glycol radiators and scoop from the belly & relocated the radiators inside the wing.Air intakes were then built into the wing leading edge. Claimed the radiators worked well at high speeds. He had trouble with engine throwing oil so he pulled out & landed. Randy Goss may have more info.
          Lockheed Bob Gollwitzer
          Lockheed Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Stiletto Questions.

            If you ever looked close at Stilletto, even the internal gear door structure had lightening holes in it. I can imagine the rest of the structure was a sacrifice for weight reduction also, and how a Griffon would have worked I don't know.
            Just never seemed to run well except in the first year, winning in 84 right out of the box.
            Sure looked good tho!
            Leo Smiley - Graphics and Fine Arts
            airplanenutleo@gmail.com
            thetreasuredpeacock.etsy.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Stiletto Questions.

              Here's my recollections having talked with Alan Preston and Dave Z in the '80's. It was the product of Zeuchel's 'braintrust', and they had been kicking the idea around for a few years. Preston was a guy with a lot of money, and looking for a project to sink some into.

              The original drawings that were presented during conception had a Griffon, pointy spinner, and five bladed prop.

              Sparrow has said that Z was disappointed with the Griffon's performance in the RB, and was somewhat disillusioned by it. (Mike, didn't you say that it was kicked around with Jeannie, too?).

              But personally, I can remember standing on the ramp, talking with A.P. in '84 about the plane, and Z coming up with someone who 'had a line' on some Griffons, trying to pitch them to Preston. He steadfastly said "I am NOT interested in putting a Griffon in this plane!"

              Regardless, I know the drawings I've seen were part of the original concept.

              As far as putting the radiators in the wings, Lockheed Bob is right. Anson Johnson's #49 Thompson Trophy racer was the inspiration for Stiletto. But I think that hindsight has shown that Johnson's 'claims' on the racer's performance were significantly exaggerated. And in it's 1984-88 configuration, I think Stiletto was the same. What was saved in the drag of removing the scoop from the belly was negated by the drag of having holes in the leading edge (not to mention disrupted lift) of the wing.

              The oil cooler was put in a single slot in the right wing, while a radiator was essentially 'sawed in two' and put in two bays in the left wing. The intakes were the holes in the leading edge, but the 'cooling doors' were merely a series of elongated 'holes' cut in the upper surface of the wing. These turned out to not be very efficient, since you couldn't adjust them, and they caused a lot of paracite drag. So in '85, they changed this and put little adjustable doors on the wing instead (similar in concept to the stock Mustang door). Everyone involved noticed improved performance.

              Leo and TJ are right about the 'construction'. Weight was saved EVERYWHERE possible. Since it was truly a 'parts Mustang', they were able to take components and modify them...like the wing center section, and the gear doors, etc. I remember scratching my head over the gear doors, looking like swiss cheese with all the holes drilled in them, and thinking to myself, 'the first time he throws the gear open just a little too fast, these things are gone'. And it was just a matter of time. I think '86 is when he lost the gear door and had to borrow Dago's for Qualifying. By the time the Sherman's bought the plane, they had been replaced by stock units. But at the time, it was hands-down the lightest racer on the ramp. I want to say it was close to or under 6,000 lbs.

              As far as performance, I was convinced it was very fast. In '84 when Skip raced Rick in Dago, they were turning in competition laps approaching 450 (which was unheard of then) until Rick caught fire. Even then, Skip won at a 437 average, which was a new record.

              At the '85 Bakersfield race, Skip led most of the final, until he had the engine overheat and had to pull out. (RG, you were there...you might have some better observation on performance there...that is, if you weren't rooting so hard for the Bear that you didn't pay attention!)

              At Reno '85, they were biding their time and just 'waiting for Sunday'...unfortunately they had a gear/gear door problem during the form-up for the Championship race and couldn't start.

              Reno '86 pretty much spoke for itself. Skip led 5 laps and was just 'toying' with Rick in Dreadnought. But a breather line popped on the oil system and gradually leaked all the oil supply out the side of the racer, so Skip had to pull out.

              Preston was having 'issues' with Zeuschel at this point, over payment for the engine blown at Bakersfield, and the oil line at Reno....and Preston had "won" Dago by that time from Frank Taylor in the "Ugly Contest" sham. So A.P. had a new racer for his own, and didn't want to fly Stiletto...so he sold it to Denny Sherman in Florida.

              Denny's son, Scott, a retired Navy F-14 pilot, raced Stiletto in '87 and '88. He DNF'd both years, but was certainly mixing it up in third and fourth at this point. Other than give it a new paint job, the Sherman's didn't do anything with it modification wise....and this was during the timeframe that Strega came out with the Mouse Motor, and Da Bear had it's second-coming...so even though it was still very fast, and had a lot of potential, the competition had stepped up a couple notches and was now out in front.

              Air Comix reported that Preston bought the plane back from the Sherman's in '89, and I can recall seeing a photo in the Warbird Report showing them doing the initial installation of the 'boil off' system. They also increased the length of the wings, because in it's original configuration it had the really short "Zeuschel clip" that was put on Specter/LARS...which all told, probably hurt performance more than it helped it. But nothing was ever done with it. Stiletto was put up for bid at the Museum of Flying Auction in '91, but failed to reach a reserve bid.

              Matt Jackson did lease it and race at Reno '92, as Chris pointed out...and did really well on a shoestring budget. But nothing further was done with Stiletto...and it just sat 'on display' in the Museum of Flying until Preston decided he didn't want it anymore, and realized he could get more than his money back if he converted it to a TF and sold it.

              Sad.

              The plane definitely had potential. If it had been with an owner that hadn't lost interest in it, I think it would still be a contender today.

              Some of the 'facts' may be a bit off, but this is all off the top of my head, and the memory starts to fade with age....so if anyone has anything to add to it, feel free.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Stiletto Questions.

                the bear's second coming, LOL, i love it
                heh heh alriiiight

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Stiletto Questions.

                  Wow. Thanks for sharing Speed. Anyone who could "lose interest" in their own Unlimited racer has lived a very different life from me!
                  Question: what was the "Ugly Contest sham" ?
                  _________
                  -Matt
                  Red Bull has no earthly idea what "air racing" is.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Stiletto Questions.

                    Originally posted by speeddemon

                    Preston decided he didn't want it anymore, and realized he could get more than his money back if he converted it to a TF and sold it.

                    Sad.

                    .
                    hope this doesn't happen to dago

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Stiletto Questions.

                      Stilletto in its final form with the boil off cooling system may have been the fastest Mustang racer ever. I is a shame we'll never know. Turning it back stock was truly a crime. :-(

                      Michele

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Stiletto Questions.

                        Originally posted by MRussell
                        Wow. Thanks for sharing Speed. Anyone who could "lose interest" in their own Unlimited racer has lived a very different life from me!
                        Question: what was the "Ugly Contest sham" ?
                        Sigh....the 'ugly contest'.

                        Well, in the summer of 1986, there was this great announcement that Alan Preston had 'won' Dago Red from then-owner Frank Taylor in a bar bet.

                        As the story went, the two buddies were out drinking, and as the alcohol started flowing more and more, they got into an argument over which one of them was 'uglier'. They decided to bet each other the pink slips of each other's racer....and let the lady bartender decide the outcome. She said that Taylor was uglier than Preston, so Taylor 'being the gentleman he was' turned the ownership of Dago Red over to Alan Preston...and that was the story they were sticking to.

                        CONVENIENTLY, however...this transaction took place MERE DAYS before the Feds raided Taylor's hanger at Chino (Rudolph's Flying Circus, in the old Aero Sport facilities), and ransacked the place looking for all sorts of 'information'. And Taylor conveniently 'disappeared' off of everyone's radar for a while after that.

                        Truth was, like the Brother's W before them, and I'm sure many other times in history as well, it was a paperwork shuffle of "lets hide the airplane" before the Feds get ahold of it.

                        But the public bought off on the "ugly contest" and the aero rags widely reported it as the 'truth'.

                        I'll let you put two and two together, though......

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Stiletto Questions.

                          Ooh, That tells me quite a bit.. lol. I noticed the weight reduction efforts with the gear doors in one of the drawings by Taichiro Yama****a, from another site.. It's a pitty that there aren't more pictures of Stiletto online, I've only found a few sadly.. but they made for interesting study regardless. It's also too bad that Tunica is off for this year, Maybe I could've asked Jackson himself about his experiences with Stiletto.. Oh well, Next year maybe.

                          But Thanks a lot, This has been quite interesting.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Stiletto Questions.

                            Originally posted by speeddemon
                            Sigh....the 'ugly contest'.

                            Well, in the summer of 1986, there was this great announcement that Alan Preston had 'won' Dago Red from then-owner Frank Taylor in a bar bet.

                            As the story went, the two buddies were out drinking, and as the alcohol started flowing more and more, they got into an argument over which one of them was 'uglier'. They decided to bet each other the pink slips of each other's racer....and let the lady bartender decide the outcome. She said that Taylor was uglier than Preston, so Taylor 'being the gentleman he was' turned the ownership of Dago Red over to Alan Preston...and that was the story they were sticking to.

                            CONVENIENTLY, however...this transaction took place MERE DAYS before the Feds raided Taylor's hanger at Chino (Rudolph's Flying Circus, in the old Aero Sport facilities), and ransacked the place looking for all sorts of 'information'. And Taylor conveniently 'disappeared' off of everyone's radar for a while after that.

                            Truth was, like the Brother's W before them, and I'm sure many other times in history as well, it was a paperwork shuffle of "lets hide the airplane" before the Feds get ahold of it.

                            But the public bought off on the "ugly contest" and the aero rags widely reported it as the 'truth'.

                            I'll let you put two and two together, though......
                            sounds like one of those things that "if it isn't true it oughtta be"
                            heh heh alriiiight

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Stiletto Questions.

                              I think I read somewhere that the cockpit was moved back around 20in, is this true? If so, did it help any and what year?

                              Jarrod

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X