Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

[Victor Archer]

I only see six unlimiteds listed on the web site, are they the only ones that were invited ? Or how does that work ? . Kinda sad to see that no aircraft from the Browns/Sanders will be there.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

I only see six unlimiteds listed on the web site, are they the only ones that were invited ? Or how does that work ? . Kinda sad to see that no aircraft from the Browns/Sanders will be there.

I know that there is a limited amount of funding to bring in the Unlimited airplanes (or any others for that matter) and that first dibs goes to the aircraft that took part in the original People Power Pistons and Passion episode of the World of Wings TV show... For all I know, the Sanders were asked and declined.

I believe that the invite generally goes out to as many as there are parking places... not my area of responsiblity

Wayne

[wingman]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Hello All -- Yes, we're finally back from our extended Reno trip.

I've been watching with interest the evolution of this year's Nellis show, and I am saddened by the ****canning of the IF1 participation. This seems very strange, as these guys are true and serious Racers, and they are very cheap. I suspect that Aviation Nation could have had the whole group for less than a T-6 -- much less an Unlimited! I wonder what compensation there is for guys who have booked vacation time to participate, or hotel rooms, rental cars etc. Are we talking about promoting Air Racing here or what???

I've been around this Sport for a long time and I've seen many "promoters" come and go -- all too often with the participants' money in their pockets as they go. I truly do hope that this guy is different, but so far there seems to be a lot more promises than actual green money coming out of this operation.

I say give these folks a chance, but keep your hands on your wallet at all times...

Neal

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Neal,

I don't think that your comments are really a fair assessment of what happened this time.

The sponsor that was covering the IF1's had to bail on half of their dedicated amount, the money just was no longer there to cover the "act" and it had to be slashed.

Rooms were part of the package and I don't think anyone was out of pocket there. From what I understand, the "promoter" went to the IF1's as soon as he knew that funding was not, for certain, available. He *could* have strung them along hoping for additional funding but did not want to do that (as many unscrupulous or "fast" promoters would have done) but he went to them and offered them the "rooms cars and gas" that is the same offering that the T-6's, and several of the other racers who show up are offered, they chose to decline the offer and not come.

The biggest problem with Nellis, as I see it, there is no gate monies to fall back on and the production, at least the racer part of it, strictly depends on the sponsor dollars. When one has to back out, what is the promoter supposed to do? Take it out of his own pocket? Promotion of the sport has to be a two way street. The fees that *some of* the UL guys do get in no way totally covers their expense to be there from what I understand, and they show to help promote the sport and have the opportunity to play with their airplanes, not to mention the additional exposure they gain for their sponsors. At Oshkosh, they don't get a fee to "race" they do it for far less than even what is offered at Nellis, yet, to promote the sport and have the FUN time on someone else's gas, they have participated for years..

The extra exposure for sponsors is not lost on some of the team managers I've talked with. When talking with a prospective backer, being able to say you are only seen at one event annually, versus two major shows or three, the additional exposure *has* to have some value to the savvy team marketing person.

I know you've been around for a long time and have "seen it all" but I don't think you have the whole story on this one.

Wayne

[wingman]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Thanks Wayne, and I really hope you're right...

I just have a deep and fundamental distrust of "promoters", along with stock analysts, politicians, lawyers, and everyone else who says they have my best interests at heart. Noone loves this Sport more than I, and I doubt whether anyone has attended more Air Races over the last thirty years than I have. (generally on my own dime, too!). Anyone who can put together a successful Air Race has my wholehearted support! Let's just hope that something financially viable comes out of all this.

Good to see you up and around!

Neal

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Hi Neal,

I have absolutely no doubt that Bob Avery (World of Wings founder) has anything but the best intentions when it comes to all of this. He's a dreamer, of course, or would not be pursuing anything in the realm that he's in now when he has a very comfortable income as a freight pilot.

I trust his intentions implicitly....

That said, I'm sure he'd be the first to admit that things can and do go wrong sometimes and events happen that are out of one's control, no matter how good the intent is....

It does not really apply here but one of Bob Hannah's favorite sayings regarding those who have good intent but wind up somewhere other than where they intended is. "The road to hell is paved with good intent"...

Trust me, I was on the short list of those Bob called when this happened and he was ABSOLUTELY sick about it. Of course, that does not make it any less disappointing for Scotty C. and the IF1 guys. The one T-6 that has committed, Warlock, has very little distance to cover to get there and their gas and rooms are being covered by the show. So for them to participate is a minimal expense. John Parker also does it for the exposure and an, essentially free weekend in Vegas for he and his lovely wife Jan. And for the pure fun of getting his airplane out in the public eye. Jon and Trish are also on the "rooms/gas/car" list and I think you'll find that a LOT of the airplanes you see at various shows, particularly EAA and military shows are there for the same compensation.

That funding was offered the IF1's the first year to cover their expenses, and they made it down was great. They were an exciting addition to the show. It's really too bad that the sponsor had to cut their contribution, from what I understand, it was just one of those things..

I don't think many know the exact details of how all the performers are "contracted" for Nellis and I'm in that group but, I think that only the racers are a WoW thing, the rest of the airplanes are normal Air Force channels and their funding is totally outside the extra bonus of the racers, which is funded, entirely, by sponsors.

Anyway... I know Scotty is not happy about it at all, I've not talked with him directly but have been copied on emails that he's sent. I hope he does not hold this against Bob and WoW, I think Bob handled a very bad situation that was dumped in his lap, very well.

Wayne
BTW "Up and around" my body told me that it needed to sleep for much of the past 36 hours and I listened. Much to my delight, my throat feels a lot better today than it has since getting bad from the treatment. I may be close now to being able to eat. Frankly, my initial zeal to eat has been somewhat dulled due to the "Pavlovian response" to getting a bit sick to the stomach every time I've tried it so far.

It's going to be a tough go getting back to normal eating I think. Getting my saliva and taste buds back would help greatly. Last time I tried, applesauce, for instance, had sort of a sweet taste but largely tasted and felt like a mouthful of somewhat sweet sawdust. That's what I'm up against, unfortunately.

[wingman]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Hi Wayne -- I had not been in contact with any of the IF1 people, but I'm not surprised that Scotty C. is a bit crabby -- he's been on the brown end of a couple of political sticks this year.

In general it's always worth remembering that the first to get shafted are always the little guys -- and that if it can happen to the little guys it can happen to anybody (or everybody)... Just ask the T-6 guys about what a certain Unlimited-Class prick (oops -- I mean Unlimited Class President) did to them for the second Phoenix air race, and what the promoter did to the Unlimiteds afterwards...


I do hope what's happened to the IF1s is not setting a precedent!

Neal

[Scotty G]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Hi Neal,

I have absolutely no doubt that Bob Avery (World of Wings founder) has anything but the best intentions when it comes to all of this. He's a dreamer, of course, or would not be pursuing anything in the realm that he's in now when he has a very comfortable income as a freight pilot.

I trust his intentions implicitly....

That said, I'm sure he'd be the first to admit that things can and do go wrong sometimes and events happen that are out of one's control, no matter how good the intent is....

It does not really apply here but one of Bob Hannah's favorite sayings regarding those who have good intent but wind up somewhere other than where they intended is. "The road to hell is paved with good intent"...

Trust me, I was on the short list of those Bob called when this happened and he was ABSOLUTELY sick about it. Of course, that does not make it any less disappointing for Scotty C. and the IF1 guys. The one T-6 that has committed, Warlock, has very little distance to cover to get there and their gas and rooms are being covered by the show. So for them to participate is a minimal expense. John Parker also does it for the exposure and an, essentially free weekend in Vegas for he and his lovely wife Jan. And for the pure fun of getting his airplane out in the public eye. Jon and Trish are also on the "rooms/gas/car" list and I think you'll find that a LOT of the airplanes you see at various shows, particularly EAA and military shows are there for the same compensation.

That funding was offered the IF1's the first year to cover their expenses, and they made it down was great. They were an exciting addition to the show. It's really too bad that the sponsor had to cut their contribution, from what I understand, it was just one of those things..

I don't think many know the exact details of how all the performers are "contracted" for Nellis and I'm in that group but, I think that only the racers are a WoW thing, the rest of the airplanes are normal Air Force channels and their funding is totally outside the extra bonus of the racers, which is funded, entirely, by sponsors.

Anyway... I know Scotty is not happy about it at all, I've not talked with him directly but have been copied on emails that he's sent. I hope he does not hold this against Bob and WoW, I think Bob handled a very bad situation that was dumped in his lap, very well.

Wayne
BTW "Up and around" my body told me that it needed to sleep for much of the past 36 hours and I listened. Much to my delight, my throat feels a lot better today than it has since getting bad from the treatment. I may be close now to being able to eat. Frankly, my initial zeal to eat has been somewhat dulled due to the "Pavlovian response" to getting a bit sick to the stomach every time I've tried it so far.

It's going to be a tough go getting back to normal eating I think. Getting my saliva and taste buds back would help greatly. Last time I tried, applesauce, for instance, had sort of a sweet taste but largely tasted and felt like a mouthful of somewhat sweet sawdust. That's what I'm up against, unfortunately.

Dammit, Wayne... You forgot ME again... Sheesh!

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

<loosening tie> No respect....I get no respect 'round here, I tell ya...

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Dammit, Wayne... You forgot ME again... Sheesh!

Sorry Scott, The last time I discussed the format, it was to be a "parade of champions" or something of that sort. All the pilots flying would be current or past Reno winners. I don't yet have the finalized version of how this segment is going to come off (why you don't see it yet in the performers section of nellisairshow.com) *when* I get it, *if* you're in it, it will have changed from the last discussion of the "act" and I'd then mention you as flying Scott.

I don't yet know that I'm not to be skinned for even discussing it! I was asked by the Air Boss to add the "act" to the schedule, but had not yet been "cleared" to discuss it.. I stepped outside my actualy discussed bounds by even mentioning it here until "officially" released by WoW... since it was added to the schedule, I blabbed what I last knew about it.

Kay?

Wayne

[Scotty G]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Jeez... I was just giving you a hard time...

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Aviation Nation, Unlimiteds?

Jeez... I was just giving you a hard time...

No prob scotty, I was just giving you the straight dope on why I had not mentioned you. I did list your airplane in the static display section though.

Wayne