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  • 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

    This may be a stupid question, but could a 2-bladed P-3 prop setup absorb the Bear's engine power? Maybe on Czech Mate's R-2800? (Cut down, of course.) Peas
    Rutan Long EZ, N-LONG
    World Speed Record Holder

  • #2
    Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

    I assume you mean removing 2 blades from a 4-bladed P-3 Orion prop?

    I don't know if that would help, if' it's possible to do at all. P-3s usually have paddle-style blades, and RB used to run a 4-paddle blade prop earlier in it's history (C-124 prop?)....That prop was so large in diameter that the Bear had to make 3-point landings and take-offs to prevent it from hitting the ground.

    As a result of this, I don't think a 2-blade P-3 prop cut down sufficently for clearance would absorb enough power to be any improvement.



    ...2-bladed P-3 propeller?....

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    • #3
      Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

      I thought the 4 blade was from an A-1 Skyraider.

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      • #4
        Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

        Eric,

        The 4 blader is from Skyraider the three blader is from Orion..or so I remember reading. Also Conquest 1 had a Skyraider prop...they look like chop sticks on her.

        Supermarine Spitfire and early waterborne racers had a two blader..until Macchi 72 came along with two two blabers running in contrarotation...each engine turning its own 2 blader prop !

        For my very lite and small Merlin powered racer I was considering a large dia two blader....since in an engine out situation..a 4 blader would be a handfull to steer...I assume !

        Please correct me if I am wrong !


        rgds,

        Juke
        http://max3fan.blogspot.com/

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        • #5
          Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

          My assumption was to use a 4-blade hub and block off the hub with cut-down stubs. (Ballasted if necessary for balanced hub loading.) I don't know the blade area specs for the various props, so we need expert comment on same.
          Rutan Long EZ, N-LONG
          World Speed Record Holder

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          • #6
            Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

            Originally posted by Peashooter
            My assumption was to use a 4-blade hub and block off the hub with cut-down stubs. (Ballasted if necessary for balanced hub loading.) I don't know the blade area specs for the various props, so we need expert comment on same.
            Peas, just from what I pick up being around the guys, I think this would throw you into having to add weight to the tail to keep the cg within range.. If I heard it correctly, the three blade P-3 prop that they took off is heavier than the 4 blade skyraider prop that's on there now. Especially if you had to ballast the hub on the 4x -2 setup, you'd wind up even adding more weight up there..

            I just watched the Rare Bear DVD, which a lot of covers the Las Vegas NM speed run and she looks to really scream pretty well with that Skyraider prop on there...

            From listening to both John and Lyle talk about what the airplane did with the 3x setup on there, I'd say it'd be a huge mistake to ever put it back on... despite the fact that it looks and sounds really cool

            Wayne
            Wayne Sagar
            "Pusher of Electrons"

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            • #7
              Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

              Yeah The BEST sounding racer!!!
              Jarrod

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              • #8
                Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                Assuming that the three-blade caused issues with pulsing (as I read in an article a few years back) and the four-blade smoothes this out, would't a two-blade just make it worse?

                Leo
                Leo Smiley - Graphics and Fine Arts
                airplanenutleo@gmail.com
                thetreasuredpeacock.etsy.com

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                • #9
                  Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                  Then there's the opinion of my old flying buddy Harry R., who flew Mustangs and T-Bolts in the ETO: can't make a 5-bladed prop; 5 doesn't go into 360!

                  Just wondered if the 2-blader would get the efficieny of fewer blades, but absorb the power without the well-documented destablizing effects of the 3-blader. And Dogee, thanks for the retouched pic -- interesting!

                  The 3-blader is MASSIVE! http://www.aafo.com/hangartalk/attac...achmentid=3255
                  Rutan Long EZ, N-LONG
                  World Speed Record Holder

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                  • #10
                    Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                    I thought the 4 blade was from an A-1 Skyraider.
                    The current one is...I was referring to the 4-blader used during the 80's....I could have sworn it had wide paddle blades. Perhaps I am mistaken, and that one was from a skyraider as well....It's been a long time.....

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                    • #11
                      Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                      Wouldn't the tips of the prop go supersonic like those of a T6? The Bear with a 2 blade would look wierd, but it would be one heck of a sound. I think a 2 blade going supersonic might actually slow the plane down (but I'm only guessing) There has to be a good reason no one else has tried a 2 blade on an unlimited.

                      Will

                      One of these days I will come up with a good screen name and actually regisiter, been lurking for 4+ years, I think its time.

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                      • #12
                        Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                        Originally posted by AirDOGGe


                        ...2-bladed P-3 propeller?....

                        Where is that original picture taken? My immediate thought is that it looks like the P-3 hangar at Misawa, Japan.

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                        • #13
                          Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                          Would a 5 or 6 blade prop be faster? I think the C-130's are being fitted with 8 blade props and are said to be more efficient. Although the Wildfire team is using a 3 blade because it is more efficient. Someone please educate me
                          Jarrod

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                          • #14
                            Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                            Where is that original picture taken? My immediate thought is that it looks like the P-3 hangar at Misawa, Japan.

                            You have an eagle-eye, my friend. That's exactly where it is...

                            I used a photo by Richard Yates for my experiment.....I felt it would be OK to display, since I only used a small, cropped portion of it for my "photoshop" experiment (actually done using Arcsoft Photostudio)...The plain background of the hanger front made it easy to edit out 2 blades.


                            I'm not sure if it would be OK to display the entire photo here, even though the pic was already "borrowed" by a P-3 fanatic for his own website, so here's a link to find the original snapshot instead:

                            Click the first link that is labeled "Air show at Misawa one (engines 1 and 2)..."

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                            P.S....I've heard of some E-2's getting 8 blade propellers, but I haven't heard yet of any c-130s getting them......It would appear that this could be a possibility, according to some text I found at an E-2c Hawkeye article:

                            The Navy is ensuring that the E-2C continues as the 'eyes and ears' of the Fleet as it applies the aircraft's capabilities in the integrated joint, overland, theater-wide air and missile defense environment


                            The NP-2000 propeller upgrades the current 4 bladed propeller to 8 blades, which is a digitally controlled all composite, flange-mounted single-piece steel hub. The design is derived from the Hamilton Sundstrand 54460-1 propeller currently used with the T56-A-425 and –427 engines on the E-2C airplanes. These aircraft operate from land and sea bases worldwide. A replacement propeller is required due to the expiring assets of the current propeller design, which is no longer in production and the blade supply is expected to reach critical level in late 2001. Approximately 50 blades are available in the inventory, and the tooling for the 54460-1 blade no longer exists, therefore , a replacement blade must be procured.

                            The NP2000 program is developing the new propellers for the E-2C Hawkeye and C-2A Greyhound. Easier and less expensive to maintain than the current four blade propellers, the NP2000 is a digitally controlled, all-composite propeller blade system that will replace the electro-mechanical, steel spar propellers that are currently on all Hawkeye and Greyhound aircraft. The eight-bladed, all-composite NP2000 propeller is a military derivative of the commercial, six-bladed 568F propeller designed and manufactured by Hamilton Sundstrand and its French subsidiary, Ratier-Figeac. The issues that caused the replacement of the old four-blade model were not performance related. Rather, it was an issue of the old blade no longer being available for purchase. The NP2000 replaces the out-of-production 54460 Hamilton Sundstrand propeller on the twin-engine E-2Cs and C-2As. The NP2000 also is designed to be compatible with the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW150 and the Rolls-Royce AE2100 engines for P3 and C-130 aircraft applications.
                            As the article states, the 8 bladers are cheaper to buy and maintain, and says nothing about better performance. Still, I would suspect a modern prop WOULD have some performance improvements.....I'll keep researching and let you know if I run across anything...
                            Last edited by AirDOGGe; 10-19-2004, 03:15 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: 2-Bladed P-3 Prop?

                              UPDATE:

                              A news article at the propeller manufacturer's website (Hamilton Sundstrand), states that they are MARKETING the new prop for P-3's and C-130's, but I haven't seen any mention of the Navy having decided on it yet....If the old 4-bladers are being discontinued, then they may have no choice in the end.




                              Navy test pilots at Patuxent River report a substantial reduction in cockpit vibration and noise levels and say it is a marked improvement from the baseline aircraft. Navy approval of the NP2000 for production supports Hamilton Sundstrand’s efforts to market the propeller for other applications. Mike Zalucki, general manager of the Hamilton Sundstrand propulsion business, said, “This propeller is also ideally suited for the modernization of P-3C and C-130 aircraft.” Hundreds of the four-engine P-3C maritime patrol aircraft and four-engine C-130 transport aircraft are flying worldwide.

                              Still no mention of better performance, just text about cheaper and faster maintanance and smoother operation.....No pics of an 8-blade equipted Orion or C-130 yet either, but I ran across several photos of Hawkeyes with them installed....

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