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Leo
09-20-2004, 12:27 PM
I don't get it people.
There have been several mentions that there was no "showdown", that the Bears victory was a TKO.
The weather was bad, and Skip cut a pylon. As I understand it was 4. There was no rain at 4. Skip cut a pylon, it happens to the best.
That John saw it and possibly held back was to me a great strategy, and a risky one if he was wrong. And it worked.
It was the best and closest race I've seen in a long time. I say cudo's to the lot of them.

Leo

Gary Osif
09-20-2004, 12:32 PM
Scotty G reported on his site that Skip had a fogged canopy, contributing to the cut.

It was a great race. One of the best in years!

Gary

Stevo
09-20-2004, 12:37 PM
Not only was the Gold Unlimited race a close one but many other were close as well. The Gold Sport and Gold T-6 are the ones that come to my mind right now. It was a great week, I'm already lookig forward to next year. I've got a little over 1000 photo's to go through (and that's AFTRER deleting all the crapy ones), as soon as I can get that done I'll post a few.

PS Gary, are you talking about WAP? Since a few day's before Reno I have not been able to get on, is the connection over there sporadic or is it just me?

Gary Osif
09-20-2004, 01:07 PM
WAP is still very sporadic. :1zhelp:

Gary

speeddemon
09-20-2004, 04:55 PM
I don't get it people.
There have been several mentions that there was no "showdown", that the Bears victory was a TKO.


You know what? Anyone who 'questions' the Bear's win, or says they won it on a technicality is either ignorant, or smoking some pretty good weed. A win is a win. To win, you have to be the first one across the finish line LEGALLY. Dago wasn't. Bear was. HOW can you question a victory like that?

Stevo
09-20-2004, 06:51 PM
Exactly. The whole way home from Reno I just kept thinking back on all the poster here that kept saying The Bear was dead. I just want to say "HA!" This just proves that with a good... no GREAT team and alot of determination The Bear can win (and will again :D ).

Leo
09-21-2004, 08:05 AM
"A win is a win. To win, you have to be the first one across the finish line LEGALLY. Dago wasn't. Bear was. HOW can you question a victory like that?"

My point exactly.

Leo

jarrodeu
09-21-2004, 04:23 PM
I just wish it coulda been a clean race. This was one of the best races in years!
Anyone feel like turning some of these great pictures into computer wallpaper?
Jarrod

AAFO_WSagar
09-21-2004, 09:48 PM
I just wish it coulda been a clean race. Jarrod, exactly what do you mean by the above statement? What was not clean about it.

As has been said above and elsewhere, if you win, you win, period. If someone cuts a pylon, they shoot THEMSELVES in the foot, nobody made them do it. Skip Holm is, obviously, one of the best of the best race pilots of all time.. On this day, John Penney was just " that much better.

Wayne Sagar

Sky Critter
09-21-2004, 11:38 PM
Wasn't it in '95 that Dago Red (driven by David Price) cut a pylon giving the win to Strega? And I think the Bear got 2nd that year.

AirDOGGe
09-21-2004, 11:55 PM
I agree....What's so unclean about the win? Stating that the race was "not clean" implies that somebody cheated. I hope you just mis-spoke and didn't refer to such dishonesty by the Bear team. Yes, it would have been nice if no pylons were cut and no penalties were applied to give the win to the Bear team, but hey, that's air racing!


In any kind of racing, taking a shortcut across a portion of a track can be considered illegal, cheating, or just simply not proper racing, as it was in this case. Technically, Dago Red left the proper race course by passing on the inside of a pylon. Many auto race tracks have walls or gravel barriers to prevent cutting corners....Reno has to use the pylon rule (unless you want to built 100-foot-tall walls around the inside of the race course...Not very practical, is it?)

Imagine a runner in the Olympics cutting across a portion of the infield during a track meet in order to get to the finish line first. He would not be declared the winner under any condition. You must stay on the track in order for there to be a fair race...

In essence, that's what happened at reno. By cutting a pylon, one takes a shorter path around the course, and so penalties were included in the rules to disallow such "shortcuts". Without this rule, everyone would be racing inside the pylon course in order to get to the finish line in a shorter period. Make sense?

-->I realize that Skip did not cut the corner intentionally, so no need to bring up that point. It doesn't matter. There's no way to tell if a racer cuts a pylon intentionally or accidentally (unless they are forced inside to avoid an obvious mid-air collision), so the rule applies in practically all cases...cut a pylon, get a time penalty. It's a fair rule that provides for fair racing.

Look into Reno Air-race history, and you will see that losing a race due to cutting a single pylon or more has happened before....This isn't the first time a race was lost this way, and it won't be the last.

The Rare Bear team didn't cross the finish line first, but they won fair and square. That's all there is to it. This was a clean win.

Sky Critter
09-22-2004, 12:43 AM
RARA has imposed other types of penalties in the past as well. A couple of pilots were fined several hundred dollars for flying too low and Voodoo was assessed an entire lap one year for jumping the start...none of which I believe were intentional. The pilot work loads are huge and the stress levels are high in any class of race. I've been flying since '87 and can't imagine racing on the deck with these guys...well...I can imagine. What an honor and a privilege it must be to be on the other side of the line. My hat's off to ALL of them...regardless where they place!

Leo
09-22-2004, 08:05 AM
And was'nt last years Silver a mess of pylon cuts due to visibility?
We all sit after each race and wait for the announcment whether there were any cuts or no, and how it effected the placements. It's part of racing.
Personally I think John's strategy was great, and part of what this sport is all about.

Go Bear!
Go Dago!
And thanks to the pilots and crews for a great race.

Leo

jarrodeu
09-22-2004, 08:42 AM
Im a bear fan and just wish dago didn't cut the pylon. I would have been more exciting with faster speeds. From what Im getting, John pulled off the power a little when he saw skip cut the pylon. Your right, the Bear did WIN, no question about it.
Jarrod

Unregistered
09-22-2004, 09:06 AM
Looking back in the RARA website data base Rare Bear finished first in one of the Sunday Gold races back in the early 70's but was pennalized and lost the race and I believed moved back to 5th. Not sure what the infraction was.

Joe

Unregistered
09-22-2004, 11:01 AM
If Dago had not cut a pylon, it is very questionable if the Bear had the speed to win a full throttle race against Dago. I'm a Bear fan sponsor, but also a realist. The Bear does not (as configured) have a whole race full of 500 mph laps in it, Dago does.

People should look a little more closely at lap speeds when forming opinions about how close a race really was. For example, does anybody really think the sport class gold race was close? Greenemyer was holding back the whole race. He had a proven 20 mph more speed on tap and just waited to the end to turn it up. It looked like a good close race, but come on guys.

John Penny flew a smart clean race. In auto racing terms, he out-drove the guy in the faster car. If you straight line a chicane on the track you get penalized. Penny saw the pylon cut and new the race was his to win, if he just stayed close while preserving his equipment. A win is a win baby. Go Bear!

AAFO_WSagar
09-22-2004, 05:00 PM
The Bear does not (as configured) have a whole race full of 500 mph laps in it, Dago does.
No disrespect intended but where are you getting this information? Do you really think that the Dago could do a race average at 500mph? Or that he has more sustained speed potential than the Bearcat when "engine healthy"?

Just my $.02 but I don't think so..


John Penny flew a smart clean race. In auto racing terms, he out-drove the guy in the faster car. If you straight line a chicane on the track you get penalized. Penny saw the pylon cut and new the race was his to win, if he just stayed close while preserving his equipment. A win is a win baby. Go Bear!Yes he did indeed and I'd highly suspect that there was a bit of "counting them out" mentality going on in the Dago pit and cockpit that *might* have led to the "getting caught hangin out" on P-4 L-2....

Is it possible that the crew of The Bear brain farked everyone at Reno this year, including The Dago crew/pilot? How many of you honestly had counted the Bearcat out for the week???? Seriously???????

I think the Crew of that Bearcat have passed the test and now move into the category of "Legends of Air Racing"

Indeed, GO BEAR!


Wayne

Leo
09-22-2004, 05:28 PM
I am sad to admit that with all the "info" I had from "experts" including Bear crew, I had lap 5 as the failure lap in our pool...
Was it rumor mongering to make the competition complacent? Was it truth? Some of both? I know every crew member, and some pilots, of every racer I talked to had them written off.
Could a healthy Bear stay with a healthy Dago for the whole race? Who would break first and why? Can Bear beat Sparky?
This is gate-wait talk guys. What we early birds do while the sun rises, and what gets chewed on in the evenings after the races.
And it' what makes this all so fun!
The Bear and it's handlers ARE with the great ones. They worked their b*tts off and won fair and square. I never doubted that part.

Leo

Ron101502
09-22-2004, 05:48 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself, Wayne!

I THINK (don't know for sure) that the Bear had enough in her, even though not at 100%, to pass Skip, but if the pass was made, could they have held Dago Red off? Maybe, maybe not, but it would have put a bunch more stress on the engine, and as a "Fan Sponsor" I'm very happy that, as Lyle said at the Friday night BBQ, they would "race right".

As was reported on this forum earlier (and shown on a Discovery Channel program), Strega did the same thing a few years ago when Bruce Lockwood cut a pylon, yet nobody had a big beef with Tiger pulling back, yet some on this board seem to think the Bear crew cheated by not doing more than what was necessary to win the race on a limited budget made up mostly of money from folks like me who don't really look at the airplane as much as the PEOPLE we are able to help out. And remember they still have a borrowed carb and cylinders with possibly bad valve guides.

And, to set the record straight about an earlier post I made in error about lap times, the "old" course measurement was 8.2688 miles, while the "new" measurement, of the same course, is 8.4803 miles. So 8.2688 diveded by 8.4803 is exactly 0.97. So multiply Dago's 2003 speeds by 97% and they are better than Lyle's by a couple knots, but not over 500 mph unless I read the wrong data from last year.

And I've seen other sites talking about fog in Dago's canopy, and while knowing nothing about F/P-51s, I almost wrecked an F-4 3 times due to fog of the canopy-it happens in an instant. So don't give Skip a hard time if that is indeed what happend, if it did he's lucky he didn't hit the ground. That would be a good reason (NOT an excuse) for cutting that pylon.

Glad we had a SAFE and EXCITING year!

Ron Henning

Unregistered
09-22-2004, 06:30 PM
Man, oh man,
If the racers can race, and the crewman can crew, the cats in here the fat can chew. What if you had a magic mirror and knew the insides intimately of both those big power plants? Where would you place your bet? With the tiny mouse from the house? or with the gigantic frantic growling bear. I've said it in the past, I'll say it to the last, When it comes to a healthy bear, ain't nuthin' as fast! So come on all you sinners and down to your knees, beg the bear for forgiveness for countin' her out. and big thanks to the magicians who did what they do, to bring that bad bear out, Her Crew! For now we just wander in astonished amaze, and wait for another distant racing days. For some it is simple, for some it is not, how much is really left in the bear and how much is not? For the Dago it's true has a great great crew, but I think with my money on the bear I would do.

AAFO_WSagar
09-22-2004, 07:32 PM
The Bear and it's handlers ARE with the great ones. They worked their b*tts off and won fair and square. I never doubted that part.Leo, This has pretty much been my point. The Green has definetely worn off this crew, and they are now black as the color of dirty airplane oil and as dangerous/sneaky as any Texas backwater poker playin gang.... If everyone wants to move up to "today" with their thoughts about the crew and pilot, start thinking "seasoned" "veterean" "experienced"... because that's what they are.. No team knows everything, some have had more years with "type" than the RB guys, I think, it's proven now, that this fact only makes it harder for another crew to "read" the RB crew... you just can't figure them. Go to bed thinking, "they're done, no way" wake to the sound of their bird either humming wonderfully on the ramp or, if you sleep a bit too long.... FLYING!


I THINK (don't know for sure) that the Bear had enough in her, even though not at 100%, to pass Skip, but if the pass was made, could they have held Dago Red off? Maybe, maybe not, but it would have put a bunch more stress on the engine, and as a "Fan Sponsor" I'm very happy that, as Lyle said at the Friday night BBQ, they would "race right".Ron, how true... It actually would have been inexcusable for John Penney to push any harder than he had to to win that race. As his crew, I think they would have had every reason to bathe him in used crankcase oil if he pushed that engine harder than necessary. What he did do was stay with Skip, tell me that was not an exciting finish? Even thinking The Dago had it, I "watched it" on a cell phone, I almost wet myself, I doubly almost wet myself when I learned that the cut had the race now won by The Bear.....

Rare Bear Crew:.. did exactly what they had to, all week, superhuman effort, no towell to throw in, take no prisoners, fix the damn airplane, shut up and get it done.. Perfect, perfect, perfect!

Penney: Strike the Nitrous to pass MB early, move right up on The Dago, see what you can do, hold on to him, push The Dago as much as possible without pushing The Bear any harder than necessary... second lap, sees a "gross" cut, sit back, save the engine, make it look good and count the money!

If any of you are confused by why and how the race was run, stop thinkinng of Rare Bear Air Racing and their effort as a one year only effort... This is a multi year program, it has goals, one of which is to have a completely race ready back up engine. Would not do much good to win much of what was neeed to get that done and ruin the one engine you already have...

Race smart, win and do it with as little money as possible...

God, these guys are either very very lucky or, they are HERE and here to stay forever!

Wayne

Phantom Samurai
09-22-2004, 07:39 PM
But Dago has done a race average of 500+ (507+, actually), despite doing so under the rather contrived new method of timing. The Bear has yet to do so to this point. And as for whether the Bear had/has enough to pass Skip and Dago, Penney had better have a bunch of throttle left, because on Sunday, Dago certainly did.

TPS

AAFO_WSagar
09-22-2004, 08:13 PM
And as for whether the Bear had/has enough to pass Skip and Dago, Penney had better have a bunch of throttle left, because on Sunday, Dago certainly did.

TPSWell TPS... care to tip your hand, let us know *who* you are so that we can identify your well of knowledge?

Did Dago really have "usable" throttle left? Why didn't Skip use it to try to push out 15 seconds ahead of the obviously ailing Bearcat? Wouldn't you think that as large as the cut was, Skip knew he'd done it? Wouldn't you think that Skip and the crew in his ear on radio would have had to, at least, have major doubts about the health of the Rare Bear overall??

These are all questions for another year, another race my friend... this one is over, Rare Bear won it. Don't matter if it was a fogged canopy, or chicken fried brain farking...

I really can't get over the camp that if Dago wins it, they deserve it because they have the bux, they are the best and they are the most prepared (a known canopy fogging situation goes un fixed... prepared??) and if the Bear guys win it, it falls in their lap, they were lucky, they better hope, yadda, yadda, yadda....

I guess we'll all banter back and forth all year on this stuff, but, 2004's over, Skip cut a pylon, Penney won... end of story....

Wayne, phantom to no one, known to all, Sagar

Eric
09-22-2004, 08:43 PM
Well said Wayne

Phantom Samurai
09-22-2004, 09:22 PM
Wayne, buddy, you certainly should know who this is. Geez, I've been posting here for a loooooong time with the same nick, and have ID'd myself on more than one occasion. For the record, it's Mike Lucchesi.

If you'd read my other post from another thread, you would know I have in no way indicated that this was anything other than a well earned and well deserved victory for the Bear... end of story. Having proudly crewed for another underdog at Reno this year, I in no way subscribe to the theory of "he who has the most $$$$ wins". Hell, if that were the case, why would 99% of the competition show up? I was merely trying to point out that the Dago folks have, to this point, shown more speed than any other racer in history. That's all.

As for my "well of knowledge", let's just say I do know what Dago ran for race power, and trust me, there's a bunch left. And regarding the pylon cut, Skip and the team had no clue, that I can assure you. The team left the pit area elated about what they believed was their sixth straight victory.

But like I said, the Bear won fair and square, and to the victors go the spoils. Let's just hope that prize money goes to make next years race even better. Congrats again to Team Rare Bear.

TPS (AKA - Mike Lucchesi)
Proud member of Team Ridge Runner III

AirDOGGe
09-22-2004, 09:56 PM
But Dago has done a race average of 500+ (507+, actually), despite doing so under the rather contrived new method of timing.

True, but are you talking about this year? No... What you are capable of yesterday may not be the case tommorrow, or next year....

Let's not forget that Dago also had engine trouble, not long before the '04 races (bad main bearing), and had to do some repairs. What they had "under the hood" may or may not have been equal to what they had in previous years.

Let's ALSO not forget the qualifying times, with Bear qualifying LESS THAN ONE MPH behind Dago (490.800 vs 490.032 mph).....This year those 2 birds may have been more closely matched than any previous race....

IF Dago had not cut a pylon, and IF Penney pushed a little harder as a result, and IF this made Skip run DG a bit harder, who can say who would have broken first? Both planes have had their share of DNF's...

You just can't use the past to predict the future so accurately.....Every year is a new experience.....You can make assumptions, but surprises are always around the corner....

deepsky
09-23-2004, 12:52 AM
In the RGJ on monday -http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/09/19/80757.php

Skip said, and I quote, " If anybody thinks that rarebear isn't the fastest airplane out there, they need to do some more thinking".

I think it was a great race, I've been to the last 27 races and have supported the bear ever since I first saw her run, It's not wether you win or lose, its how you fly the race that counts, I think both pilots did great and flew their harts out, so in my opinion it is a mute point, they give my son and I a week together to enjoy airplanes and pilots at there finest, Skip and John can both go home with their heads held hi! I may not be a race pilot or a crew member, or even know someone special, but I know we froze our butts off, watched a great race and went home with smiles on our faces and plans forming for next year!

thank you John, skip and everyone else who made our week a blast!!!!
P.S. my traitor son (6 years old) says dago will smoke the bear next year. LOL :)