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  • C130's and fire fighting

    I may be wrong, But if I remember correctly some years ago there was another C130 that crashed fighting fires. The FAA put out it's final report some time after stating (This is NOT a direct quote because I cannot remember it) that that C130 had a fire in the wing structure that made the wing collapse at the fusalge. The milatary and the manufacture refused to beleave the report from the FAA.

    I am not jumping to conclusions, but I would bet, this would be what happend to this C130. If you look at the video (of what apears going in for the drop). you can clearly see smoke comming from the air craft. Then the plane reapears with more smoke and the fire retardint trailing, then the wings fold up. The reporters that took the footage from Reno NV. were doing a special report of that flight crew, and have several minutes of video of the plane circling and loosing altitude in the valley were it finaly crashed. This is the only reason we have the incredibale footage of the accident.
    I would like to hear the report from the pilot of the spotter plane. (They are in constant contact with each other), and see what he has to say about what he and the pilot of the C130 talked about. But we have yet to hear any thing from him, (and I doubt we will).

    If any of you can confirm a report from the FAA about a C130 that crashed several years ago. please help to refresh my memory.
    Once again, My hats off to the men and women who choose to protect us. They deserve a hero's welcome and fairwell. May god bless thier famlies for the ultimate sacrifice.

    Wolfee.

  • #2
    Wolfee,

    Though I hate to engage in speculation about these things in public, you and others have noticed some similarities to the two fire tanker C-130 crashes.



    Is a link to the one in California and indeed, there may be something similar to this.

    Wayne
    Wayne Sagar
    "Pusher of Electrons"

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you Wayne, I knew I rememberd some thing from the past with the C130.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think it's always rougher for those of us who watch these videos than when we just read about it. It had to have been the $hits for those guys.

        I'll try to find the link again, there is a message board run by the tanker community and I believe there is a link there for donations to a fund they have for this sort of thing.

        It would probably make everyone who is feeling the gut pain from this if they went there and left not only their condolances to the family but perhaps, if possible, a donation to that fund to help out the familes of these brave souls lost yesterday and other days.

        Air Tanker Message Board

        As far as I can tell by the traffic there, nobody has posted information that would enable an easy contribution. As soon as we know of an address, we'll post it here.

        If you can afford to give a little, give a little and some more. There are some really touching stories on that board by some of the survivors.

        This is sad stuff guys.. really sad..

        Wayne
        Wayne Sagar
        "Pusher of Electrons"

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting...

          The Airforce flys C-130's into hurricanes and into other severe weather. It is usually a very stout airplane.

          I would think it would have had to be some kind of explosion near the main spar to cause a failure of such magnitude. Reading the link about fuel leaks in the dry bay made sense. If the fumes collected, and an explosion happened near the main spar, I could see the force of the blast breaking the spar and then the wings fold like they did because of the weight / force on those points. That would also explain how BOTH wings would separate...instead of just one.

          one man's opinion...

          Comment


          • #6
            @ First Blush....

            I'd tend to agree with this if reading the NTSB report... an interesting link gleaned from the airtanker.com site's message board.. http://iprr.org/COMPS/T82story.htm tends to dispute this with some pretty convincingly thourough reports...

            No doubt, the two accidents seem awfully similar, though that certainly can't be conclusively stated as fact for quite a while till everyone gets done looking at the pieces.

            Still very sad situation, address information now posted on the airtanker.com message board for those who would like to contribute to the aid fund for the survivors of these crashes.

            As it turns out, there are little to no death benefits for the families of these heroes fighting this war against nature.

            Wayne
            Wayne Sagar
            "Pusher of Electrons"

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually, the problem may have more to do with the model of the airplane than anything else.

              A C-130 is not a C-130, is not a C-130. By which I mean, the A models flying as air tankers are not typical of later Herks. Their wings are much weaker, a well understood fact in the AF, Reserve & Guard. In-service, they flew with a number of restrictions for this very reason.

              The AF bought a good number of A's but they were all retired fairly promptly after the problem manifested itself. Overhauling the wings was deemed far too expensive. While conclusive findings are not available (and may never be) it appears the wings failed post-drop. IMHO, this was not the result of any fire or explosion. Stresses on the wings just after retardant release may have been sufficient to cause failure of a weakened wing. This is only speculation but problems with A's are known.

              A combination of politics and economics led to their employment as air tankers. Many feel the A models are totally unsuited to this work and should be retired.

              Comment


              • #8
                From the NTSB

                The NTSB sends reports to those media outlets who have subscribed to their service and they have sent the following. Though obviously inconclusive at this point, we'll continue to post what they send as they send it.

                God Bless Our Brave Air Tanker Crews!

                ### Begin Report ###

                NTSB Advisory
                National Transportation Safety Board
                Washington, DC 20594
                June 21, 2002

                UPDATE ON NTSB INVESTIGATION OF C130 CRASH IN WALKER, CALIFORNIA

                On June 17, 2002 a C130 aircraft crashed in Walker, California while performing firefighting activities. The National Transportation Safety Board launched two investigators, one from the Southwest Regional Office and one from NTSB headquarters in Washington, D.C., to the accident site. The following is an update of factual information gathered thus far in the investigation.

                The investigative team completed the wreckage survey on Wednesday, June 19. Once the debris trail mapping is completed the wreckage will be moved to a hangar in Minden, Nevada in order to do a layout. In a layout, the wreckage is placed on the hangar floor in the approximate location of where it would have been on the intact aircraft. The layout allows investigators to examine patterns in the wreckage that reflect the angle of impact, separation sequence, impact forces, burn patterns, etc.

                The aircraft had more than 20,000 operating hours. Maintenance records for the aircraft as well as Service Difficulty Report data are being collected for review. The team is also examining video and photographs of the accident to gather information on the accident sequence. Additionally, meteorological information for the site at the time of the accident will be obtained.

                The pilot in charge of the aircraft had more than 10,000 flying hours and had the appropriate type rating to fly the C130.

                The aircraft was not required to and did not have a flight data recorder or a cockpit voice recorder on board.

                ### End Report ###
                Wayne Sagar
                "Pusher of Electrons"

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm likely all wet here and am trying to shake my memory on the Electra problem but wasn't it a harmonics problem and not with the wing but with the tail... It was caused by the engine or prop combo, that I do remember but my fading memory cells are telling me that it was tail related.. Whichever though, I believe the two problems would be totally unrelated, as the Electra problem was with vibrations and fatigue and I think the -A model Herc is totally different.

                  Anybody?

                  Wayne
                  Wayne Sagar
                  "Pusher of Electrons"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Electra

                    It was a wing problem caused by harmonics...I read the story quite some time ago, and the details are hazy, but I do remember after Lockheed applied their solution, they flew the new wing with one prop either out of balance, or out of track to deliberately induce the harmonic, and see if the wing would dampen the harmonic while maintaining structural integrity....
                    the other Wayne................

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Lockheed L-188 Electra

                      Amazing that Lockheed had wing problems with two designs that were produced one right after the other.

                      The L-188 Electra encountered a vibration problem with the engine (nacelle?)

                      Not to be too pedantic, but ... ;-)

                      The Electra's problem was a "whirl-flutter" vibration mode in the engine mount strructure. As I understand it, whirl-flutter is a peculiar mode that can be set off by the gyroscopic effect of a large diameter heavy prop, when the precession rate of the "gyroscope" (the prop) corresponds to a natural vibration frequency of the attaching structure. Again, my memory is vague, but I think in the case of the L-188 the problem somehow involved an accessory mounting structure (alternator?) as well, and changing this structure solved the problem, and I don't think the wing itself was changed at all.

                      If you want another Lockheed A/C besides the C-130A with a history of wing box issues, look no further than the C-141 Starlifter :-/

                      It is interesting to note that L-188s are now also used extensively in fire-fighting. That is one *tough* airframe, and quite frankly an L-188 or P-3 is about the only thing I'd prefer to an A-26 Invader if I were brave enough to bomb fires in the first place.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A model AC-130 gunships

                        Yeah, although the newer versions of the C-130 have no problems with wing strength (as long as you operate within limits), the A model was prone to wing problems right from the beginning. Special Operations gunships upgraded to an "E model" gunship as soon as they were available.
                        Although the possibility of a fire in one of the dry bays can't be ruled out, as I viewed the video, it seemed that there was a large oscillation along the pitch axis that may have overstressed the aircraft's wings, regardless of model. I'm not sure if this could have been caused by updraft/downdrafts from the fire. In any case, I'm just making wild speculations and the NTSB is quite capable of finding out the truth.
                        Phil R.

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                        • #13
                          Re: C130's and fire fighting

                          hi my name is Brenda . my boyfriends grandfather was killed in a c-130 accident in the city of walker california in the year 2003 i would love it if you can e-mail me some information about this accident ..
                          his granfathers name was Mike Davis..

                          thank you, Brenda

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: C130's and fire fighting

                            MY NAME IS MICHELE TORIGIANI MY DAD MIKE DAVIS WAS KILLED ON JUNE 17TH 2002 IN WALKER CA ON THE C-130 THAT THE WINGS SNAPPED OFF. I RECENTLY VISITED THE CRASH SITE AND ENJOYED THE BEAUTIFUL MEMORIAL THAT WAS PUT THERE. NOTHING CAN BRING MY DAD, STEVE, AND CRAIG BACK I JUST WISH THE CONCERN FOR THE AGING C-130'S WOULD HAVE BEEN TOP PRIORITY THEN AS IT IS NOW. EVERYTIME I SEE A PICTURE OF THE PLANE CRASHING I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE MY DAD IS IN THERE!! IT'S BEEN FOUR YEARS NOW BUT I STILL MISS MY DAD LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY AND I'LL TELL YOU THE SAME THING 10, 20, YEARS FROM NOW. DADDY, CRAIG, AND STEVE YOU ARE HEROS FOR THE JOB YOU DID, MAY YOU ALL REST IN PEACE.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: C130's and fire fighting

                              Michelle, Brenda,

                              I'm touched by you "guys" coming in here! The people who fight fires are in a war, no less than any other war we fight. They are, indeed, heroes!

                              I'm so sorry you had to watch that video, I'm sure, it doesn't seem real to this day.

                              May the crew fly in crystal clear blue skies forever!

                              Thanks for stopping by!

                              Wayne
                              Wayne Sagar
                              "Pusher of Electrons"

                              Comment

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