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wolfee
06-18-2002, 07:51 PM
I may be wrong, But if I remember correctly some years ago there was another C130 that crashed fighting fires. The FAA put out it's final report some time after stating (This is NOT a direct quote because I cannot remember it) that that C130 had a fire in the wing structure that made the wing collapse at the fusalge. The milatary and the manufacture refused to beleave the report from the FAA.

I am not jumping to conclusions, but I would bet, this would be what happend to this C130. If you look at the video (of what apears going in for the drop). you can clearly see smoke comming from the air craft. Then the plane reapears with more smoke and the fire retardint trailing, then the wings fold up. The reporters that took the footage from Reno NV. were doing a special report of that flight crew, and have several minutes of video of the plane circling and loosing altitude in the valley were it finaly crashed. This is the only reason we have the incredibale footage of the accident.
I would like to hear the report from the pilot of the spotter plane. (They are in constant contact with each other), and see what he has to say about what he and the pilot of the C130 talked about. But we have yet to hear any thing from him, (and I doubt we will).

If any of you can confirm a report from the FAA about a C130 that crashed several years ago. please help to refresh my memory.
Once again, My hats off to the men and women who choose to protect us. They deserve a hero's welcome and fairwell. May god bless thier famlies for the ultimate sacrifice.

Wolfee.

AAFO_WSagar
06-18-2002, 08:01 PM
Wolfee,

Though I hate to engage in speculation about these things in public, you and others have noticed some similarities to the two fire tanker C-130 crashes.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001206X02066&key=1

Is a link to the one in California and indeed, there may be something similar to this.

Wayne

wolfee
06-18-2002, 08:07 PM
Thank you Wayne, I knew I rememberd some thing from the past with the C130.

AAFO_WSagar
06-18-2002, 08:18 PM
I think it's always rougher for those of us who watch these videos than when we just read about it. It had to have been the $hits for those guys.

I'll try to find the link again, there is a message board run by the tanker community and I believe there is a link there for donations to a fund they have for this sort of thing.

It would probably make everyone who is feeling the gut pain from this if they went there and left not only their condolances to the family but perhaps, if possible, a donation to that fund to help out the familes of these brave souls lost yesterday and other days.

Air Tanker Message Board (http://airtanker.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html)

As far as I can tell by the traffic there, nobody has posted information that would enable an easy contribution. As soon as we know of an address, we'll post it here.

If you can afford to give a little, give a little and some more. There are some really touching stories on that board by some of the survivors.

This is sad stuff guys.. really sad..

Wayne

gsbloom
06-20-2002, 06:28 AM
The Airforce flys C-130's into hurricanes and into other severe weather. It is usually a very stout airplane.

I would think it would have had to be some kind of explosion near the main spar to cause a failure of such magnitude. Reading the link about fuel leaks in the dry bay made sense. If the fumes collected, and an explosion happened near the main spar, I could see the force of the blast breaking the spar and then the wings fold like they did because of the weight / force on those points. That would also explain how BOTH wings would separate...instead of just one.

one man's opinion...

AAFO_WSagar
06-20-2002, 09:12 AM
I'd tend to agree with this if reading the NTSB report... an interesting link gleaned from the airtanker.com site's message board.. http://iprr.org/COMPS/T82story.htm tends to dispute this with some pretty convincingly thourough reports...

No doubt, the two accidents seem awfully similar, though that certainly can't be conclusively stated as fact for quite a while till everyone gets done looking at the pieces.

Still very sad situation, address information now posted on the airtanker.com message board for those who would like to contribute to the aid fund for the survivors of these crashes.

As it turns out, there are little to no death benefits for the families of these heroes fighting this war against nature.

Wayne

Unregistered
06-21-2002, 12:08 PM
Actually, the problem may have more to do with the model of the airplane than anything else.

A C-130 is not a C-130, is not a C-130. By which I mean, the A models flying as air tankers are not typical of later Herks. Their wings are much weaker, a well understood fact in the AF, Reserve & Guard. In-service, they flew with a number of restrictions for this very reason.

The AF bought a good number of A's but they were all retired fairly promptly after the problem manifested itself. Overhauling the wings was deemed far too expensive. While conclusive findings are not available (and may never be) it appears the wings failed post-drop. IMHO, this was not the result of any fire or explosion. Stresses on the wings just after retardant release may have been sufficient to cause failure of a weakened wing. This is only speculation but problems with A's are known.

A combination of politics and economics led to their employment as air tankers. Many feel the A models are totally unsuited to this work and should be retired.

AAFO_WSagar
06-21-2002, 12:20 PM
The NTSB sends reports to those media outlets who have subscribed to their service and they have sent the following. Though obviously inconclusive at this point, we'll continue to post what they send as they send it.

God Bless Our Brave Air Tanker Crews!

### Begin Report ###

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
June 21, 2002

UPDATE ON NTSB INVESTIGATION OF C130 CRASH IN WALKER, CALIFORNIA

On June 17, 2002 a C130 aircraft crashed in Walker, California while performing firefighting activities. The National Transportation Safety Board launched two investigators, one from the Southwest Regional Office and one from NTSB headquarters in Washington, D.C., to the accident site. The following is an update of factual information gathered thus far in the investigation.

The investigative team completed the wreckage survey on Wednesday, June 19. Once the debris trail mapping is completed the wreckage will be moved to a hangar in Minden, Nevada in order to do a layout. In a layout, the wreckage is placed on the hangar floor in the approximate location of where it would have been on the intact aircraft. The layout allows investigators to examine patterns in the wreckage that reflect the angle of impact, separation sequence, impact forces, burn patterns, etc.

The aircraft had more than 20,000 operating hours. Maintenance records for the aircraft as well as Service Difficulty Report data are being collected for review. The team is also examining video and photographs of the accident to gather information on the accident sequence. Additionally, meteorological information for the site at the time of the accident will be obtained.

The pilot in charge of the aircraft had more than 10,000 flying hours and had the appropriate type rating to fly the C130.

The aircraft was not required to and did not have a flight data recorder or a cockpit voice recorder on board.

### End Report ###

AAFO_WSagar
06-21-2002, 12:27 PM
I'm likely all wet here and am trying to shake my memory on the Electra problem but wasn't it a harmonics problem and not with the wing but with the tail... It was caused by the engine or prop combo, that I do remember but my fading memory cells are telling me that it was tail related.. Whichever though, I believe the two problems would be totally unrelated, as the Electra problem was with vibrations and fatigue and I think the -A model Herc is totally different.

Anybody?

Wayne

GWB
06-23-2002, 03:34 PM
It was a wing problem caused by harmonics...I read the story quite some time ago, and the details are hazy, but I do remember after Lockheed applied their solution, they flew the new wing with one prop either out of balance, or out of track to deliberately induce the harmonic, and see if the wing would dampen the harmonic while maintaining structural integrity....

Unregistered
06-26-2002, 12:44 PM
Amazing that Lockheed had wing problems with two designs that were produced one right after the other.

The L-188 Electra encountered a vibration problem with the engine (nacelle?)




Not to be too pedantic, but ... ;-)

The Electra's problem was a "whirl-flutter" vibration mode in the engine mount strructure. As I understand it, whirl-flutter is a peculiar mode that can be set off by the gyroscopic effect of a large diameter heavy prop, when the precession rate of the "gyroscope" (the prop) corresponds to a natural vibration frequency of the attaching structure. Again, my memory is vague, but I think in the case of the L-188 the problem somehow involved an accessory mounting structure (alternator?) as well, and changing this structure solved the problem, and I don't think the wing itself was changed at all.

If you want another Lockheed A/C besides the C-130A with a history of wing box issues, look no further than the C-141 Starlifter :-/

It is interesting to note that L-188s are now also used extensively in fire-fighting. That is one *tough* airframe, and quite frankly an L-188 or P-3 is about the only thing I'd prefer to an A-26 Invader if I were brave enough to bomb fires in the first place.

SpookyPilot
06-29-2002, 01:51 PM
Yeah, although the newer versions of the C-130 have no problems with wing strength (as long as you operate within limits), the A model was prone to wing problems right from the beginning. Special Operations gunships upgraded to an "E model" gunship as soon as they were available.
Although the possibility of a fire in one of the dry bays can't be ruled out, as I viewed the video, it seemed that there was a large oscillation along the pitch axis that may have overstressed the aircraft's wings, regardless of model. I'm not sure if this could have been caused by updraft/downdrafts from the fire. In any case, I'm just making wild speculations and the NTSB is quite capable of finding out the truth.:confused:

Brenda
08-14-2006, 11:18 PM
hi my name is Brenda . my boyfriends grandfather was killed in a c-130 accident in the city of walker california in the year 2003 i would love it if you can e-mail me some information about this accident ..
his granfathers name was Mike Davis..

thank you, Brenda

Unregistered
08-17-2006, 10:44 PM
MY NAME IS MICHELE TORIGIANI MY DAD MIKE DAVIS WAS KILLED ON JUNE 17TH 2002 IN WALKER CA ON THE C-130 THAT THE WINGS SNAPPED OFF. I RECENTLY VISITED THE CRASH SITE AND ENJOYED THE BEAUTIFUL MEMORIAL THAT WAS PUT THERE. NOTHING CAN BRING MY DAD, STEVE, AND CRAIG BACK I JUST WISH THE CONCERN FOR THE AGING C-130'S WOULD HAVE BEEN TOP PRIORITY THEN AS IT IS NOW. EVERYTIME I SEE A PICTURE OF THE PLANE CRASHING I JUST CAN'T BELIEVE MY DAD IS IN THERE!! IT'S BEEN FOUR YEARS NOW BUT I STILL MISS MY DAD LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY AND I'LL TELL YOU THE SAME THING 10, 20, YEARS FROM NOW. DADDY, CRAIG, AND STEVE YOU ARE HEROS FOR THE JOB YOU DID, MAY YOU ALL REST IN PEACE.

AAFO_WSagar
08-17-2006, 10:50 PM
Michelle, Brenda,

I'm touched by you "guys" coming in here! The people who fight fires are in a war, no less than any other war we fight. They are, indeed, heroes!

I'm so sorry you had to watch that video, I'm sure, it doesn't seem real to this day.

May the crew fly in crystal clear blue skies forever!

Thanks for stopping by!

Wayne

speeddemon
08-18-2006, 07:06 AM
Two different problems, Wayne. The Electra 'harmonics' issue had to do with the engine mount--a single post-type frame. There was not enough lateral support for the engine, and if the prop got a little out of balance, it would start a divergent 'swirl' that would literally twist the prop and engine off the wing. Lockheed solved the problem on subsequent Electra's and P-3's by modifying the engine mounts. Problem was solved immediately, and never an issue again.

As far as the wing spar 'fire' theory. The P-3 and the C-130 are actually very similar airframes. I know that it sounds kind of weird, but we always joked that the Herks were just P-3's flying upside down. Same engines, similar systems, etc., and since they were both built by Lockheed, similar construction materials and techniques. The P-3 NATOPS addressed a 'wing fire' situation, which was directly traced back to an Air Force C-130 that had a spar fire, and the spar failed within 89 seconds. It's been a while, but I think the 'wing fire' was one of the few emergencies where NATOPS recommended bailing out of the aircraft as opposed to trying to set it down somewhere 'controlled'.

440_Magnum
08-18-2006, 08:36 AM
I'm likely all wet here and am trying to shake my memory on the Electra problem but wasn't it a harmonics problem and not with the wing but with the tail... It was caused by the engine or prop combo, that I do remember but my fading memory cells are telling me that it was tail related.. Whichever though, I believe the two problems would be totally unrelated, as the Electra problem was with vibrations and fatigue and I think the -A model Herc is totally different.

Anybody?

Wayne

Ok, I'll walk out on a limb and relate my (hazy) memory.

IIRC, the Electra problem was rooted in a mounting structure for either the engine itself or an engine accessory. The mount was susceptible to a vibration that caused a "whirl flutter" mode in the whole engine mounting structure that eventually led to a fatigue failure. I have been told that this is not unlike the whirl-flutter failures that Beech 1900s have suffered in much more recent times. In both cases, a comparatively minor change in structure seems to have completely eliminated the problem. Now take this for what its worth- I only know what little I do about the Electra because a co-worker was involved in reconstructing the failure of a Beech 1900 engine mount by using the fact that the insulation of installed but not-connected wiring attached to unused channels of the voice recorder acted as a primitive microphone and detected the vibrations, and told me about the similarities to the Electra failures decades before.

I don't remember any connection with a problem in the tail... although there was a pretty bad old movie about a fictionall new airliner with a flaw in the tail structure (can't remember the name of it now).

Although the Electra tragedies (and the fact that it was a turboprop introduced too late into the dawn of the jet age) cut the Electra's career as an airliner short, I've got to say that the Electra/P3 airframe has *more* than proven itself rugged. They do things that would tear lesser airframes apart. I worry about what aircraft will be available to serve as retardant bombers when the Electras and Invaders finally do get too old- those airplanes are in a class by themselves when it comes to flying through incredibly rough air such as is found in fire zones.

kennsmithf2g
08-18-2006, 09:05 AM
The Movie was a Jimmy Stewart movie,

I believe that it was "No Highway In The Sky"

Kenn

Wilnit
08-18-2006, 09:51 AM
The crew of T-130 did not need a spotter, the pilot, Steve Wass, had credentials for initial attack. I too lost a friend that day. I am a Deputy Sheriff in the neighboring state of Nevada and had to respond to the area for mutual aid. As I left my house for swingshift that day I watched T-130 fly past my house on the way to Walker to fight the fire. A while later I arrived in Walker and saw the tail section of T-130 lying in a vacant lot surrounded by fire. Steve Wass was in my Father's fourth grade class, he later became a pilot that could fly virtually everything. Later in life Steve taught my Father to fly, eventually getting his pilots license. I too had limited student time flying with Steve.

There are a couple of memorials in Walker along Hwy 395. Anytime you all are driving on Hwy 395 to/from Reno/L.A. please stop by and say hello and thank you to the crew. They along with us will greatly appreciate it.

Wayne, there is another site that contributes to the fund and aides the families of T-130. After my friend was killed I contacted the family and asked if I could have a t-shirt made in their honor. They agreed whole heartily. PLEASE, I DO NOT RECIEVE ANY GRATUETIES FROM THIS, I WANTED TO HONOR A FRIEND ONLY................

The site is http://www.shirtsigns.com/airattack/t130.html

Once again, I DO NOT GET ANY KICK BACKS FROM THE SALES OF THESE SHIRTS....

Thanks,

Will R. Lynch

ramp mouse
08-18-2006, 09:57 AM
Where is the memorial on the 395?, would like to stop & reflect a while.

AAFO_WSagar
08-18-2006, 09:57 AM
Thanks for the link Will...

What county are you DS in?? My brother-in-law used to be a Douglas county DS. I rode with him one night way back, maybe even in the 80's. We did Tahoe for a night shift. Not much happened but it was a neat evening's "work" for me.

speeddemon
08-18-2006, 10:07 AM
The Movie was a Jimmy Stewart movie,

I believe that it was "No Highway In The Sky"

Kenn

Sure you're not thinking of "Fate is the Hunter" with Glenn Ford?

Apteryx
08-18-2006, 10:12 AM
Sure you're not thinking of "Fate is the Hunter" with Glenn Ford?
That wasn't a structural problem, it was a beverage holder problem, (and a dead engine). :D

Paul

speeddemon
08-18-2006, 10:13 AM
That wasn't a structural problem, it was a beverage holder problem, (and a dead engine). :D

Paul

I guess that is what happens when you mount jet engines to the horizontal stablilizer of a DC-4, eh? :D

Haven't seen that movie in decades...but I do know that it was a shame they chose the title from Ernie Gann's excellent book of a totally different story.

Wilnit
08-18-2006, 10:56 AM
Ramp Mouse,

The memorial is along the east edge of N/B Hwy 395 north of the town of Walker. There are three white crosses then north of that there is a cement slab with a plaque attached to it. I think there is even a fire hose rolled up at the bottom that someone placed there........ If you're familiar with the famous Walker Burger, then the memorial is north of that as you head out of town towards Nevada.

Wayne,

Yes I work for the Douglas County Sheriff's Department in Gardnerville, Minden and Lake Tahoe, NV. I think you mentioned your ride along once before, a lot has changed since the 80's though.......

WRL

AAFO_WSagar
08-18-2006, 11:41 AM
I think you mentioned your ride along once before, a lot has changed since the 80's though.......
Yea... LOL.. including the length of time that I remember things.. . :confused:

:dunno:

Dialtapper
08-18-2006, 09:37 PM
[QUOTE=speeddemon]Two different problems, Wayne. The Electra 'harmonics' issue had to do with the engine mount--a single post-type frame. There was not enough lateral support for the engine, and if the prop got a little out of balance, it would start a divergent 'swirl' that would literally twist the prop and engine off the wing. Lockheed solved the problem on subsequent Electra's and P-3's by modifying the engine mounts. Problem was solved immediately, and never an issue again.

Speaking of the Electra, are there any aviation/airline geeks out there that know what two major contributions the L-188 made that are in every airliner today?

AKA HITMAN
08-19-2006, 06:23 AM
[QUOTE=speeddemon]Two different problems, Wayne. The Electra 'harmonics' issue had to do with the engine mount--a single post-type frame. There was not enough lateral support for the engine, and if the prop got a little out of balance, it would start a divergent 'swirl' that would literally twist the prop and engine off the wing. Lockheed solved the problem on subsequent Electra's and P-3's by modifying the engine mounts. Problem was solved immediately, and never an issue again.

Speaking of the Electra, are there any aviation/airline geeks out there that know what two major contributions the L-188 made that are in every airliner today?
More accomadating toilet seats???

jarrodeu
08-19-2006, 10:07 AM
Air & Space did an article on flutter a few years back. It also discused the problems with the electra.

Jarrod

Unregistered
08-19-2006, 12:13 PM
Read awhile back in Aviation Week , a nice multi-page article with photos of wing box, spar, etc photos that showed failure points.

The summation of the article was that the failures were inline with flight hours loads alot more that what the log books reported.

The author opionin was a/c flight hours not reported, i.e. black missions... et al.

Is this a common thing or what.

!!

**moderator note: Please register so your posts will show without review. It's free. It's easy!**

AirDOGGe
08-20-2006, 11:48 PM
The Electra prop-flutter problem was also on a program on the History channel. They showed some good footage of the wind tunnel model with the prop/nacelle twisting.

This NASA page on flutter has some pre/post-test photos of that model:

http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Concept2Reality/flutter.html

(Scroll down to the section labeled Applications to Civil Aircraft - Lockheed Electra Aircraft)

.

And this brief .AVI clip from the Air & Space Smithsonian site shows the model in action, complete with gyrating prop.

http://www.aiaa.org/tc/sd/Education/how_sd_accounted_for/testing/media/Whirl.avi


.

440_Magnum
08-21-2006, 06:49 AM
That wasn't a structural problem, it was a beverage holder problem, (and a dead engine). :D

Paul

I remember both of those, but gosh I haven't thought of the Glenn Ford movie in *YEARS*! The one I was thinking of earlier in the thread was "No Highway..."

Apteryx
08-21-2006, 10:39 AM
Bonus points if you can name the stewardess, (err..cabin attendant), that served the coffee... :D

440_Magnum
08-21-2006, 01:36 PM
Bonus points if you can name the stewardess, (err..cabin attendant), that served the coffee... :D

I'll disqualify myself- I looked it up on IMDB this morning :p

And in those days, if you said "cabin attendant" everyone would think you were nuts :-)