Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

[jarrodeu]

I know I'm looking far ahead but will Wildfire be at Reno 2005, and when it finally does get to Reno how fast will it be?
Jarrod

[speeddemon]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

SWAG says mid-high 300's.

The T-6 airframe (I know, I know, it's not REALLY one anymore...) is big....the whole airplane is BIG. And it's only powered by a R-2800. A 2800 will only be fast if it's on something really small...like Greenamyers Bearcat, or the Yak.

Just my .02.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

I know I'm looking far ahead but will Wildfire be at Reno 2005, and when it finally does get to Reno how fast will it be?
Jarrod

Ask and ye shall receive...

Special thanks to Bill Pearce for thinking of and taking the time to drop on the Statler's during his visit to Mojave!

http://aafo.com/racing/2004/wildfire_2/

Wayne

(note to those who have submitted stories that our -dragging his feet- editor has not gotten to yet.... SORRY... they are coming!!)

[rpzo]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Nice write up on Wildfire Bill!

Hopefully you've helped set the record straight on that project.

Rick

[speeddemon]

Engine cowling theory

Perhaps someone with a more in-depth knowledge of cooling can enlighten me, but I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy that more 'volume' of air that flows past/through the engine will make it more efficient.

I have always understood that you want as small an opening as possible, to reduce the frontal area drag. It's what you do with the air once it's inside that effects how efficient the cooling is. It needs to have the proper ducting inside the cowling to properly direct it over the cylinder vanes. (For an example, look at the spinners and the ducting inside the cowling on the Bear, most of the Sea Furies, etc.)

On Wildfire, I see a big cowling opening, with a long, pointy spinner of a much smaller circumfrence. Yes, it opens up a lot more surface area for cooling, but it also adds a lot more frontal area...a big flat surface for the air to push against/around/etc.

When the Bear first started out, it had a long, pointy, DC-7 spinner. So did Yancey's Yak. But as they came along further in development, they went to bigger, more efficient spinners, as well as adding ducting inside the cowling, behind the spinner. And they got faster, cleaner, and more efficient as they developed.

And as was pointed out in the article, what goes in, must come out, or it results in a lot of 'spill-over' out the front. The ducting to allow that by-pass air to exit is just as important as it is going in. A big opening that dumps air out is also drag. Take a look at the exhaust ducting around the 'fast radials' and tell me it isn't a work of art.

I'm not trying to be critical here. I really am trying to understand the theory the Statlers are using. Maybe someone can explain it to me a bit better?

[hattend]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

You aren't alone in your thinking, Speeddemon.

I was reading the interview and just thinking, "That doesn't sound right" everytime they mentioned the reason for a design parameter.

But, what do I know, I'm just a fan.

Don

[Persnickity]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Hmmmm....that airplane reminds me of an old Clint Eastwood movie...The good, The bad, and The ugly!
Good for tackling such a huge project, not chopping up another warbird, and hopefully adding another Unlimited Racer into the mix.
Bad, for the huge cowling inlet, funky carb intake, etc. The quoted 500 mph top speed seems a bit generous as well. Chech Mate is a much cleaner, smaller aircraft and has evolved over the years, and she's nowhere near 500. You have to love the teams optimism, but I'd be surprised if Wildfire breaks 400.
The ugly, well, that would be the overall airplane! I know, what a jerk, but someone had to say it! Hopefully that airplane will be succesful enough to be refined over the years as well. Clean up those lines!

[W J Pearce]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

I want to make it clear that my post is not directed at Don or Speed but I have some comments for everyone. I feel that no matter what any of us think, we will all see the results. I honestly believe that Wildfire will make it to Reno in 2005. As it goes around the pylons, then we will all see what does and does not work.

There has always been a lot of bashing Wildfire, Mach Buster, and Renegade. I think few among us are aero engineers, yet these planes were built by aero engineers who had different ideas... like engineers who thought of using metal instead of wood, the swept wing, retractable undercarriage, turbine power, and area rule fuselage.

What we need to remember is that the Statlers (and Dave Rose) are putting their money and effort where their minds are. They have built a racer; few of us have. They will go to Reno to fly; few of us do. The world can judge them the same way it has judges every other design... speed.

Are they doing it all to fulfill their ego and some personal destiny that they have for themselves? Or are they doing it to further our sport; to find an affordable more reliable Unlimited that can race often and inexpensively?

Personally I wish them the best of luck and I will be cheering them on regardless of speed. I know the majority of the fans will be too (including Speed and Don).

Bill Pearce

[hattend]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Bill,

My writing about my thoughts as I read the Wildfire article should not be taken as criticism. I am not an aerodynamicist nor do I play one on TV.

If the plane makes it through qualifying and races Thursday through Sunday, I will be there cheering them on...as long as they are behind the Bear.

I wish the team well

Don

[jarrodeu]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Great Artical, a wealth of information I think that the team is very expirenced and know what they are doing. But they are human and this could be a huge mistake. I think it will be in the mid 400's maybe 465. I don't know and neither does anyone else. We will all find out in a little over a year. I will enjoy watching it fly around the pylons no matter how well it does. Just fun to watch a new racer for once.
just my thoughts
Jarrod

[W J Pearce]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Don,

Like I said in my post my comments were not directed at you and I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I also did not feel that you were criticizing Wildfire at all. Your post along with Speeddemon's reminded me of something that I have wanted to say. Simply put, there have been a lot of shots from the dark against several projects. These shots are not constructive or informative. I think that people who do not have anything more than a half-thought-out one-liner to add to the conversation should keep it to themselves. People that have a thought out question (Speed's post) or who disagree on fundamental arguments should post away. That way we have a much more interesting and informative discussion. At least that is how I see it.

Bill Pearce

[Bossman]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

I admire the devotion the team has for the project and all the time they have put into it but there is no way that plane will go 500 mph in a dive. There is no need for that much cooling air, you don't want the engine to over heat but heat is HP. A sea fury running the 3350-26wd runs well bellow redline with the composite oversized spinner and cooling air exits closed up, and when your racing you want to run close to redline but not over. Although the -93 that 232 runs makes 4000+ hp compared to the -26's 2800hp, so you need a larger cooling air exit to get more air past the cylinders. Now compared to Wildfires 2800 that produces something around 2250hp I wouldn't think they need as much cooling air as they have. And there are better ways of getting air to the carb than putting a 50 gal drum on the top to your cowling. The scoop on 232 gives the engine somewhere around 7in. of MAP from the ram effect and it has a very small frontal area compared to the one on wildfire. Anyway, just my thoughts.

[King]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Cooling drag......................cooling drag........................cooling drag!

Some of the best minds in aerodynamics have studied and designed on this area for both unlimited and IF1 for many years. Look at the fastest racers in both groups and you will see what this means.

Wildfire may reach the mid 300s. Not much more.

[speeddemon]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Wildfire may reach the mid 300s. Not much more.

Thanks, King.

Without ANY disrespect for the expertise of the parties involved, I stand by my original assessment....even if it is an assessment from someone not in any way involved in the project.

[Peashooter]

Re: Will Wildfire Be ready for Reno 2005?

Discovery Wings has a program airing on the development of the TU-144 SST. (Wings over Europe series) When Tupolev envieled the mockup of the 144 at the 1965 Paris airshow, many were amazed with the design similarities between the 144 and the Concorde. However, the head of the French design team expressed no surprise, given the requirements of the mission. Another case that proves the idiom that form follows function. The laws of physics cannot be ignored.

And for a lesson in "metaphysics": here's the penultimate rule regarding causality: "The final cause is the first cause in the order of causes." Wherein the four causes in the order of causes are: material & formal (intrinsic to anything); and efficient & final (extrinsic to anything).

As applied to the Pond Racer, they are: 1) Material, primarily composites; 2) Formal, designed by Burt Rutan; 3) Efficient, Scaled Composites & Pond team in support; 4) Final, Bob Pond: to win Reno and preserve precious warbird resources in the process.

Why is the final cause the first cause? Because without Mr. Pond's concept, funding and the WILL to see the project through, it would have never happened. Yet his idea was the first link in the chain of causes.

OK grasshoppers, now go out under a star-struck sky some evening and think about causality.... Peas, BA Philosophy, 1978, Xavier University (Yes, the NCAA Great 8, Xavier!!!)

PS Juke, the force of will can make TS-2 a reality.