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Unregistered
01-20-2004, 09:30 PM
Whatever happened to the racer being built with I think F-86 tail, Corsair wings or fuselage, was going to have a 4360 for power. Anyone know whatever happened to this bird?? Also, wondered whatever happened to Mach buster, the homebuilt unlimited at Livermore Ca.

Randy Haskin
01-21-2004, 01:55 AM
Machbuster is owned by David Rose now. He spent the last two years trying to get it to work, but suffered a number of setbacks including a gear collapse.

It appears, according to the following link, that he has shelved MachBuster in favor of a new project...

http://www.barnstormers.com/EVENTS/040101/040101-01.html

AAFO_WSagar
01-21-2004, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Randy Haskin
It appears, according to the following link, that he has shelved MachBuster in favor of a new project...

http://www.barnstormers.com/EVENTS/040101/040101-01.html Interesting... looks a fair bit like the DART racer....

Ought to be interesting.

Wayne

Peashooter
01-21-2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Whatever happened to the racer being built with I think F-86 tail, Corsair wings or fuselage, was going to have a 4360 for power. Anyone know whatever happened to this bird?? Also, wondered whatever happened to Mach buster, the homebuilt unlimited at Livermore Ca.

There are two projects here: 1) Matt Jackson's American Spirit, which has the F-86 tail and a T-2 Buckeye wing with R-3350 power, which is scheduled to fly this year, but not be at Reno '04; and 2) Daryl Greenamyer's Shockwave with an R-4360 on a custom-built fuse and Seafury outer wing panels. I'm not aware of any progress on Shockwave since the folks at AmJet ran out of cash about 5 years ago. Peas

Jay
01-21-2004, 01:36 PM
Looks like they are using the wing, horizontal, and prop off MachBuster with a new fuselage and new wide track, simple retracting landing gear.

Victor Archer
01-21-2004, 03:03 PM
I see the web site says "This new racer will compete in the "Unlimited" Class during the 2004 Reno Air Races." Does that mean that both David Rose and Wildfire will have to be at this years PRS?
I know David has won the Sport Biplane Class many times but has he flown an Unlimited class racer? That's not very much time to shake the bugs out of a brand new experimental airplane, get use to flying twice as fast around the pylons and "beat out the [so called] 507mph record" beat Dago the Bear and a bunch of other proven Unlimited planes and veteran Unlimited pilots.

FlyKidChris
01-21-2004, 03:52 PM
I could be wrong, but I think Peashooter's description is a bit confused (then again, maybe it's me). As I recall "American Spirit" by Matt Jackson / Dave Cornell uses the T-2 tail, wing and part of the fuselage, with an 3350. It's Greenemeyer's "Shockwave" that uses the F-86 tail, with Sea Fury outer wing panels, a scratch built fuselage and center section and a 4360.
On another topic, does anyone know where (web site or book) to find solid technical descriptions of piston engines (like bore and stroke, etc)? I'm interested primarily in the P&W 4360 and 2800. Thanks in advance.

rampmouse
01-21-2004, 05:26 PM
shockwave was in San Diego, but left last weekend to go up north.
last time I saw it, it was on the gear, with wings on. I can't wait until that beast is flying.

Peashooter
01-21-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by FlyKidChris
I could be wrong, but I think Peashooter's description is a bit confused (then again, maybe it's me). As I recall "American Spirit" by Matt Jackson / Dave Cornell uses the T-2 tail, wing and part of the fuselage, with an 3350. It's Greenemeyer's "Shockwave" that uses the F-86 tail, with Sea Fury outer wing panels, a scratch built fuselage and center section and a 4360.
On another topic, does anyone know where (web site or book) to find solid technical descriptions of piston engines (like bore and stroke, etc)? I'm interested primarily in the P&W 4360 and 2800. Thanks in advance.

You're right. I must be getting old and addled! Peas

Unregistered
01-22-2004, 06:38 AM
The airrace fans in the midwest appreciate all the updates on racers on the left coast, please keep it coming.
I was under the impression that Wildfire was the on going project at mojave that is supposed to be nearing flight testing according to a thread on warbirdaeropress.
It just amazes me that someone can be building a racer and be as far along as David Rose is and that it is just now being reported on this board. It looks great but I haven't won the lottery so I can't help him .....yet.
It is good to hear that Shock Wave and American Spirit are being worked on and possibly being ready for 2005.
Hopefully Mr Awesome will be completed and make it sometime in the near future. The only dissapointment for me this morning is that The Red Baron project that I understood was being built in Indianappolis has been sold for parts.
Please keep the information coming.

RichBSTL

champ19
01-22-2004, 07:22 AM
For FlyKidChris
And for any motorheads out there. Many of you may already know of this excellent resource, Bill Kerchenfaut and Brent Hisey are members, but the Aircraft Engine Historical Society, www.enginehistory.org is an excellent source for anything to do with aircraft engines. Piston or Jet. They publish an excellent journal, "Torque Meter" and cover the technical aspects of Reno Unlimited air racing in at least four back issues. I recommend it to anyone with an interest. Good web site that will keep you reading for hours.

FlyKidChris
01-22-2004, 03:35 PM
I'd heard of the "society" but not the web-site. Many thanks, I'll get right on it. Again, thanks.

T. Adams
01-22-2004, 05:26 PM
Wow, awesome site. I was reading the history of the R-4360 and came across the fact that one of the engines was ran for 1 hour at an output of 4850hp. Damn, can you imagine the noise that sucker made cranking out that kind of horsepower for a solid hour. I wonder what the fuel consumption was!!:D

Unregistered
01-24-2004, 03:32 PM
To All:


You also might try Graham White's book "Allied Aircraft Piston Engines". It can be found at Amazon! Excellent source of info on P&W, Curtis Wright, Rolls Royce, and Allison engines. If my memory is correct, Dwight Thorne recommended this book. By the way, Mr. White's book lists the P&W 4360 & P&W 2800 both having a bore of 5.75 inches and a stroke of 6.0 inches. I was very impressed with the Aircraft Engine Historical Society. Great Stuff!



Keith Doyne
Still In Frozen Pennsylvania

Pylon1_Mark
01-27-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by rampmouse
shockwave was in San Diego, but left last weekend to go up north.
last time I saw it, it was on the gear, with wings on. I can't wait until that beast is flying. Kinda dated pics (been holding on to these P1 submitted pics for a while now, and not doing me much good on the old hard drive collecting dust) - but shows a little of the progress on the plane as of 3 years ago.

**Image Links Removed By Admin Until Disputed Ownership Can Be Resolved <sigh>**

One can only imagine what progress has been made since then.

As far as who took these - he wished at that time to remain anon - so I will still honor that request.

rwflyboy
01-27-2004, 09:11 AM
I am glad you have started putting some pics up from that old hard drive of yours...hope to see more as things get better around the "landstang" home.

AAFO_WSagar
01-27-2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by rwflyboy
I am glad you have started putting some pics up from that old hard drive of yours...hope to see more as things get better around the "landstang" home. I agree Markers!

Thanks for this looksee at "Shockwave"!!!

Feel free to upload any time.. New version of this board, when they get it out of Beta and into Gold release, will have image thumbnails built in.

This'll make it a lot more modem friendly when images are posted and I hope to be able to utilize the feature more when this happens..

Wayne

rwflyboy
01-27-2004, 09:53 AM
cool man...it will be awesome to see that come online....Just did a wireless from my father in laws house on a T-1 line to my house 750+ feet away and man....time to dump the dial up.....big time...

It's great living on a 40 acre farm with relatives who have a t-1 line...:D

AAFO_WSagar
01-27-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by rwflyboy
It's great living on a 40 acre farm with relatives who have a t-1 line...:D My apartment complex uses a shared T-1 system that's only about 100 yds from my place. Goes from the T-1 to twisted pair but, with only about 13 users, and only one other "power user" I generally see about 7-8/10's of the entire capacity of the line. Sweet for $50. per month.

Cable would be quite a bit cheaper and is now available... the big BUT in that is, download speeds are often faster than the T-1 but uploads, (very important to me) are capped at about 128kbps... which really sucks.

Fairly often, I check the site via Beer Nazi's dialup, also use a dialup when I travel. Some of the more graphics loaded posts really crawl downloading them. The thumbnail feature, coming in V3 of this board, will really be a welcome feature!

Wayne

Scotty G
01-27-2004, 01:44 PM
...

AAFO_WSagar
01-27-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Scotty G
BULL****. Remove my photos from this board - and your computer hard drive, Mark. I took them on a visit to Darryl's hangar near San Diego many years ago; not three. They're even published in Air Classics. They are copyright material.

OOPSIE!!! :eek:

Scotty G
WarbirdAeroPress.com Scott, since you quoted the original post, thereby adding the images to your own post, would you care to edit your own to remove the disputed images?

Thank You,
Wayne Sagar

Scotty G
01-27-2004, 02:01 PM
...

AAFO_WSagar
01-27-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Scotty G
Wayne,

Not picking a fight with you; you're blameless here. But this isn't my responsibility. It is partly yours, however. You've been notified that copyright images are in use without permission on your web site. Please remove the images. By doing so, you remove yourself from the problem *and* honor my reasonable demand.

When the photos are removed from your site, then they are also removed from my post.

Thank you. I disagree, you are, indeed, picking a fight.

The images are *NOT* located on my site, they are *linked* on my site and are visible on my site and, I removed the link from the original, disputed post.

I've now asked *you* to edit your *own* post that is linking the images...

In short you put them there, so I asked you to remove them but, just to make you happy, I'll edit *your* post for you Scotty.

Wayne

Scotty G
01-27-2004, 02:10 PM
...

AAFO_WSagar
01-27-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Scotty G
Wayne,

Done. Are the photos still on your server?

Thank you. Scott, as I mentioned in the above message, the images were *never* on my server, they were linked in a message to another server.

If you would have right clicked them, then clicked properties, you would have seen where they were located.

Thank You,
Wayne Sagar

AAFO_WSagar
01-27-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Scotty G
Wayners,

Calm down, dude... I saw that and changed it. Breathe... LOL... are you done now? I have to go back to work...

Thanks Again,

Wayne Sagar

Unregistered
01-27-2004, 02:19 PM
As an honest bystander looking at the way this is going...the proffessionallism is surely lacking...( so is my writting ability---no author here!!!)
A) I wouldn't be able to tell that these were copyrighted ...did you see a copyright on them.
B) Since all of us who are interested in Air Racing enjoy seeing the pictures of works or worked in progress in this case, aren't we supposed to share the wealth of information to make the intrest grow in the sport? Instead we show how we could cry about someone using your pictures. ( that should be making you feel honored in the fact that your pictures were nice enough to be used to promote the sport.)

Wayne, I think you know who I am so ya know....I think that the way you bend to please those who think their site is the only one out there with info on air racing! Kudo's to ya man.

Pylon1_Mark
01-27-2004, 03:18 PM
Well Wayners - I recieved the images from another person who said they were his and had proven himself to be trustworthy. We can only trust our sources to be honest and upright with what they claim to be their stuff - and I would have never posted them if I didn't belive the guy.

Sorry to have caused any grief for you Wayne. I had no idea ownership would be disputed.

Why don't you post a followup Scotty - attach a link to a much larger detailed scan (1600x1200) of the images with a full coverage WAP emblazened accross it. I mean, I would be happy to delete anything off my computer as long as I can feel confident who is telling the truth. It would be nice to see some proof of ownership - since you made the ownership issue a public one here.

My appologies in advance - but as I said - We can only trust our sources to be honest and upright with what they claim to be their stuff.... and it's a good idea to get the facts established so we act reasonably and responsibly.

All the best,

Unregistered
01-27-2004, 08:01 PM
Ahhh, the reason I check AAFO daily and WAP very seldom, it does not seem clear to me but here is yet another kernel of interaction.

I miss Pylon1, but appreciate everything Mark has done and respect the character surrounding his accomplishments. THANK YOU!

Sometimes things make me embarrased to tell others I am an airline pilot.

Lastly, Thanks Wayne for this site. As appreciation let me know if you need "passes", I may be able to help.

Back to lurking, daily.

Herb Sohn
Relentless air race fan since '88

AAFO_WSagar
01-28-2004, 05:10 AM
Scott,

Understanding that years between when we take pictures and similarities to those that we take to those that others take, sometimes can lead us to believe that we're seeing our shots out there with credit given to others, or with no credit at all; personally, I'd like to see some proof that these are actually your shots.

I know I certainly have seen shots that were taken at almost the exact moment, from almost exactly the same location, by another shooter and I had to drag out the original to ensure myself that it was, indeed, not my shot. And this is after only a month or two. Sometimes, the moment was so closely captured, the only way to really tell is detailed inspection.

As you have indicated, these were shot many years ago. Memories fade, exact details blur.

You have made an ownership claim to these shots, others have also made a claim that disputes this. I think the ball is in your court to produce confirmation and I'd appreciate it, as would, I'm sure, everyone else who got to see the shots.

If they, indeed, are yours, sharing them with a race fan base hungry for information about this airplane would also seem to be something good.

Of course, it's your call, I don't have copies of the images, someone else was nice enough to search their archives and provide the look. I appreciate being given the chance to see them, if only for the short time allowed by this dispute.

If they are yours, I look forward to seeing them again, perhaps elsewhere. If there has been some sort of mistake, then I'd like to see them where they originally were in the first place.

Thanks,

Wayne Sagar

AAFO_WSagar
01-28-2004, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Lastly, Thanks Wayne for this site. As appreciation let me know if you need "passes", I may be able to help. Herb,

thanks for the pats.. and, if yer talkin "buddy passes"... !!!!!

There are several things I'm not able to "look into" due to not being able to fly "non rev" as are some others...

I have to budget my travel, as my "retirement income" does not allow me to go *anywhere* unless I earn the funds from my activities.. so...

Man.. if yer talkin buddies... you have my complete attention!

Wayne

Unregistered
01-28-2004, 08:24 AM
Sheesh....if I didn't know any better, I'd say the three of you were an old married couple (albeit, in one of those strange, twisted kind of arrangements the Bush Administration wants to constitutionally ban). The more things change, the more things stay the same. But I can feel the love in the air, that's for sure.

You know, I think that during qualifying at Reno this year, we all need to pile into Wayne's pickup and head out to the road. We can sit on the tailgate, pop a few cold ones, tell some lies and log some hangar time (which counts as 'half' in the log book, Scotty) and watch the airplanes go by. No cameras, no modems, no websites, no copyrighted material. Just 'the guys', beer, and planes.

Hell, we could even invite Da Bear out to join us--that is, if he's not found hanging from a noose from those new high-tension power lines leading to the new Stead/Lear Memorial Business Park. Wingman can come too, as long as he promises not to 'drop-trou' like he did on the ramp a couple years ago (still have nightmares about that). Bucky can come too...but I don't have any good dirt on you.

Once upon a time it was fun. We all got along. We all were there for the same purpose, and it felt like we were all on the same 'team'. At the risk of sounding like Rodney King, 'can't we all just get along?' Let's just let bygones be bygones and remember what it used to be like.

You guys up for it? I'm in.

And remember....'what happens in the truck, STAYS in the truck.'


Brad the Prospector

Scotty G
01-28-2004, 01:07 PM
Hi gang,

I'm torn about posting here, but I'm going to do it - probably for the last time.

First of all, I have already wrote Wayne and Mark about the deal. I asked Mark what the chain of events were, and who has claimed that they are theirs. No response on that yet. I told Wayne it wasn't an attack on him. I can see where my ready, fire, aim was too quick.

I could have right clicked the photos to see where their physical location was. That would have solved half the problem. I just didn't think of it at the time.

I made a claim that they were my photos. Given the past, why would I come here to intentionally stir up a hornet's nest? It doesn't do me any good, and it sure doesn't do anybody else any good. If somebody says they are theirs, then they can go ahead and prove it. In the meantime, I'll look for my shots. If *you* want to, go ahead and take a look at the June 1995 issue of Air Classics magazine and make up your own mind.

Back when I did not have a site, and Mark was running P1, I submitted a lot of stuff to him. The dates, details and such are lost to time. I'm not saying Mark did anything intentionally wrong, either. Could be an honest mistake. Providing the name of the "anon" person would help (privately).

I was set off because copyright is an important issue. People like Wayne try and make a living off of this stuff. For me, it's merely beer money. It really doesn't matter, although I am under contract for those photos, and part of the agreement is that they may not appear anywhere else. Yes, I am protective of my photos and my work.

More importantly, since photogs and writers get paid so little for what they do - in my own way it is protecting those people's ability to make a buck without having to always look over their shoulder. If they come after me today, they will come after you tomorrow.

Shockwave photos are few and far between. I happen to have spent several hours with Darryl in '95 interviewing him and taking shots of the racer. Big whoop.

The other issue I would like to address are the posts flaming me. Thanks for the input, Mr. Sohn. I find it laughable that you have no idea who I am, have never been around me, yet are able to make such a judgement call based on my fast reaction to this post of my photos. Sure, I should have done it better, but it is what it is. I look better in the black hat, anyway. Feel free to contact me and have an adult discussion about it, but I doubt you are whom you say you are. WarbirdAeroPress@cox.net

There was one other poster that thought I should be willing to share the photos. Allow me to make a point - how about I come over to your house and share your stuff? Got a boat? Can I use it for free? No? I'm being playfully sarcastic here, but I think you get the point.

I run a racing site, and the amount of material I share is staggering. From the Emil Strasser photos, to Gerry Liang's and mine, and several other contributers... It's all *about* sharing. My site is free, as is AAFO. You want to make a bone about three photos? C'mon. I also share my photos with several authors for their air racing books. My request for payment? Nada.

As a gesture to Wayne, I edited my posts down to nothing. I did not try to antagonize him, and I have told him this. Whether he belives me or not is his business. Mark could have simply forgotten who sent him the pics. I don't know what the real deal is. I wish I could have responded to this better, but it is what it is.

Thanks, and goodbye. "I'm not going away mad, I'm just going away..."

M.A. Edwards
01-28-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Scotty G
Hi gang,

<snip>

If they come after me today, they will come after you tomorrow.

<snip>

Thanks, and goodbye. "I'm not going away mad, I'm just going away..."

I guess I can relate to Scotty G.'s dilemma better than some.

In another post on the site someone suggested a few beers on a tailgate watching the planes and without any rancor... I'd offer the beer, cold from the fridge, on the observation deck of our offices at the airport, but the beer, the fridge, the deck and the building it was attached to seem to have gone missing. Fancy that.

There's more truth to the first quote than you realize, but I'll disagree that the second solves anything. It's the ability to address problems that will ultimately resolve them, whether it be private (preferred) or public (if necessary). Walking away won't do it. Nobody in this sport has ever been shown to be thin-skinned; the facts surrounding this picture-posting affair are what they are, and it looks like every effort is being made to bring them to light. Whatever they may be, the people involved have records of being big enough to make it right.

This isn't the time for division; this sport is going to need unity, some revamping, and active participation in fixing its problems in order to survive. That IS, after all, why folks look here and elsewhere, isn't it? I won't do the 'Why can't we all get along' stuff. That'll never happen with passionate and opinionated people. But establishing a common goal for a common interest certainly is achievable. Time to prove the post that stated Air Racing Is Dead absolutely, finally, and totally WRONG.

Like that great line: Too close for missles, switching to guns.... How about training those guns on the people doing dirt on the sport rather than back on yourselves?

Flames welcome:

Comments@Reno-SteadAirport.com


MAE

Pylon1_Mark
01-28-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Wingman can come too, as long as he promises not to 'drop-trou' like he did on the ramp a couple years ago (still have nightmares about that). Oh, now I think that deserves a little clarification :p Welcome to your nightmare bro LOL

AAFO_WSagar
01-28-2004, 02:03 PM
:rolleyes:
:eek:
:confused:

Pylon1_Mark
01-28-2004, 02:21 PM
Scotty - I hear you... but there is really no need for unneccessary posturing here. I did delete the photos off of the net as you requested, Wayne deleted the pics from the message board. If that was all you were tying to do, it's been done.

You said it best...

If somebody says they are theirs, then they can go ahead and prove it. The issue of ownership was questioned - so being the party claiming foul it isn't outside the realm of acting reasonably or rationally to ask you for the proof. I just offered a suggestion to post it here, and only because you made the issue a public one. Since you seem to be unable to do so - then it's OK to resolve this privately. Take the rest to email or PM. Nuff said.

matt
01-28-2004, 02:32 PM
hey mark, you darn well better make it to reno or atleast prs this year! i need my smokin' buddy back!

hehehe, good to see you online more often.

matt

Leo
01-28-2004, 04:57 PM
You know, I think that during qualifying at Reno this year, we all need to pile into Wayne's pickup and head out to the road. We can sit on the tailgate, pop a few cold ones, tell some lies and log some hangar time (which counts as 'half' in the log book, Scotty) and watch the airplanes go by. No cameras, no modems, no websites, no copyrighted material. Just 'the guys', beer, and planes.

And if it's hot, come on over the hill into Cold Valley and we'll sit by the pool and watch them in the evening. :D

Peace guys

Leo

AAFO_WSagar
01-28-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Leo
And if it's hot, come on over the hill into Cold Valley and we'll sit by the pool and watch them in the evening. :D

Peace guys

Leo Hey Leo, you better watch out... one of these days, you're gonna get taken up on that... lock up your ladies and your fridge! ;)

It's amazing how thirsty a guy can get out on the desert all day!

Wayne

Leo
01-28-2004, 05:09 PM
The pool is cool and the fridge open!
And during race week and PRS I'm out there in a lawn chair with a cold one anyway, so the lady(s) won't even notice the crowd...

AAFO_WSagar
01-28-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Cobra
Oh, now I think that deserves a little clarification :p Welcome to your nightmare bro LOL Sorry but I can't resist and I am *NOT* meaning to pour fuel on anyone's fire but Mark Mark Mark.... we know you posted that because you know NOBODY's gonna claim ownership to THAT photo ;););)

OK OK... now.. I'm sincerely hoping everyone takes the above as it's intended! HUMOR!!!!!!!

:D :D :D

Wayne

Peashooter
01-28-2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Cobra
Oh, now I think that deserves a little clarification :p Welcome to your nightmare bro LOL

Ah, secret Reno unveiling of a single-tube pulse detonation engine...go faster, eat more beans! Now, where's that NO2 button? :eek:

AAFO_WSagar
01-28-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Peashooter
Ah, secret Reno unveiling of a single-tube pulse detonation engine...go faster, eat more beans! Now, where's that NO2 button? :eek: LOL.... if you know Wingman, you know how true your statement!! ;)

Wayne

wingman
01-28-2004, 08:14 PM
Doesn't every photographer strive to get those shots of the moon rising over the ramp at Reno?

Hello Brad -- I'm in.

And Leo -- We have to meet!

The Wingman

Leo
01-29-2004, 06:41 AM
Most definately wingman. It would be great to meet the people on "the board"!
As PRS gets closer we'll talk. I plan on being around for it this year.
Last year I was moving here and could only watch from the house except for one quick stop when I was supposed to be at the hardware store, shhhh...
And all the family and helpers got pretty sick of my son and I running outside and muttering in strange tongues.

Unregistered
01-29-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Cobra
Oh, now I think that deserves a little clarification :p Welcome to your nightmare bro LOL

GAD ZOOKS!!!!!

Unregistered
01-29-2004, 11:18 AM
"LEARN TO TURN THE OTHER CHEEK" HAS MORE THAN ONE MEANING. Thank God for the signage!!!