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View Full Version : What could be the ultimate lap speed in RENO ?



First time Juke
05-30-2013, 02:05 AM
19640
19641

I have been gathering info on small aeroplanes and I found out that downsizing gives the advantage.

Tsunami with some success tried this.

J.A.W.
05-30-2013, 02:47 AM
Depends.. maybe, if there is an Area 51 electro-magnetic anti-G-vortex bell class allowed..

But seriously..

Speaking of which, do the Gold Class unlimited jockeys utilize modern G-suits?

Some of those WW2 recips' were G-stressed for ~+14..

First time Juke
05-30-2013, 04:32 AM
Depends.. maybe, if there is an Area 51 electro-magnetic anti-G-vortex bell class allowed..

But seriously..

Speaking of which, do the Gold Class unlimited jockeys utilize modern G-suits?

Some of those WW2 recips' were G-stressed for ~+14..

Size reduction was thoroughly studied in 1970ies.

Pilot seat was reclined 57 degs ( normal 34-45 ).

ChrisMX105
05-30-2013, 12:17 PM
I'm sure Wild Bill or Thom can enlighten us further but I do believe Thom Richard had a G-suit for 2012, Legs only if my memory isn't fuzzy, I also heard that it was a Nitrogen operated system and with the G- No G enviroment happening constantly it burned through the bottle pretty fast.

No idea if it was worth it. now we get to wait for the people in the know to fill in the blanks.

Wild Bill Kelso
05-30-2013, 12:26 PM
We were the only one's with a G-Suit last year. It came back with an empty bottle EVERY HEAT. Funny things that you can find on ebay.

Thom Richard
05-30-2013, 12:36 PM
The G-suit system was very effective. I found a brand new (US) suit (the right size), a brand new G-valve, purchased a new regulator and a new N2 bottle and installed the system in one afternoon. The entire thing weighed 23 lbs. It was not cumbersome at all. They say it increases your G tolerance by about one G. But what I found even more valuable is that it reminds you when to strain. Sometimes you're busy and strain a little later than you should for maximum effect. The G-suit made it very simple. The PM cockpit is quite small, but the G-suit did not interfere with anything. It was very comfortable. The only draw back is that it does not breathe much. It does get hot. However, the cool suit T-shirt I wear takes care of that. I could sit on the ramp in the sun and feel like I was in the air conditioning.

The G-suit is definitely not necessary for racing. The onset of G and the values are very manageable. However it does increase the comfort level with what we do in those cockpits to a great degree. I definitely intend to continue its use. I like it a lot and would recommend it to anyone.

As far as longevity, it does vent nitrogen at all times so it'll last about 15 minutes on the course with the little bottle I have. More than needed. I turn the valve on coming down the chute.

Now here's the question, guess what the entire system cost me?

Wild Bill Kelso
05-30-2013, 12:47 PM
Now here's the question, guess what the entire system cost me?

Folks are going to sit back and laugh when you tell them. I know I did!

ChrisMX105
05-30-2013, 01:35 PM
Folks are going to sit back and laugh when you tell them. I know I did!

Let's start the bids at 1200...........

Reynard
05-30-2013, 01:51 PM
Just the legs? I'd say $300 ~ $350.

Arctic Cat
05-30-2013, 03:35 PM
$79.99 plus $15 for shipping on the "BUY IT NOW" button?

Wild Bill Kelso
05-30-2013, 04:00 PM
$79.99 plus $15 for shipping on the "BUY IT NOW" button?

Silly isn't it?!

MIKE NIXON
05-31-2013, 01:51 AM
Increases in lap speeds are seeing the top of the curve, but on a perfect day etc. with all the bells working and a boiler cooling system, Strega could see 530+.
The wing is close to Vne then and the HP to go 1% faster needs to increase on the order of 5%+.
Will it happen?

Thom Richard
05-31-2013, 06:41 AM
Suit
G-valve
Hoses
N2 bottle
Regulator
Hardware
Shipping
_____________

$352.-

Quite possibly one of the best investments in air racing environmental equipment history...

Thom Richard
05-31-2013, 07:28 AM
with all the bells working and a boiler cooling system, Strega could see 530+.

Ok Mike, so that begs the question, what could we see without a boil-off system?

J.A.W.
05-31-2013, 08:55 PM
& Mike, would that speed be actual TAS, by ground speed/transponder/GPS reckoning or.. IAS on the ASI?

Idaho_cowpony
05-31-2013, 09:22 PM
I'm pretty darn sure that's calculated LAP SPEED, MPH

J.A.W.
06-01-2013, 02:39 AM
Whaaa?
Mean lap speed?
Or peak speed down the shute.. would have to pull it in a tad for the pylons.. surely?

Idaho_cowpony
06-01-2013, 02:31 PM
Yes...LAP SPEED, as in the one that's published for Qualifying..

J.A.W.
06-01-2013, 05:24 PM
I take it you mean..
..that although the maximum straight-away speed [Mike's ~530 mph] - is not technically feasible to
be maintained as an average speed around the turns.. it will appear as an 'official lap speed'?

Surely.. not?..

Idaho_cowpony
06-01-2013, 06:45 PM
The aircraft is timed around the course. (home pylon, to home pylon, as previously mentioned) Last year RARA published the course size as 8.1034 (According to their 'Optimum path', the course is actually under 8 miles, measured pylon-to-pylon.

So for example, last year Strega qualified with a lap TIME of 59.137, which equaled 493.299mph

To figure that:
8.1034 x 3600 = 29172.24
29172.24 / 59.137 = 493.299mph

It's essentially the actual (average, if you will) lap speed of the aircraft.

So for 530mph, they would have to fly a lap at, or under 55.041 Seconds.

In other words, I believe what Mr. Nixon is saying, is that it's possible for #7 to shave 4 seconds off it's lap time. I would say that is VERY reasonable.

Consider this; that September Fury was running what was essentially a stock motor, at conservative settings (albeit slow prop), and was able to post race speeds in the 450's. She probably had another 40mph in her, and that would put a few of those laps well over 500 as well.

- Joseph

J.A.W.
06-01-2013, 07:19 PM
Impressive.. thanks for the explanation, Joseph..
& Certainly something to be gunning for..

J.A.W.
06-01-2013, 07:50 PM
& for Juke..

How 'bout this for a Reno Lap Record proposal?

Make a design submission to Red Bull & Porsche..

A 'Thunder' sized airframe powered by an H-24 [ Napier Sabre-style]..

& constructed from 4 sets of their 4 litre flat six race mills en-bloc?

Add boost & fuel..[420hp x 4 = ~1680hp in atmo form, add a bar & 1/2 boost or so.. ~3,000hp?..]

Crank the numbers.. goer.. or not?

J.A.W.
06-01-2013, 09:03 PM
I mean.. if they could do this kind of thing 40 years ago..

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/pic/422/Porsche-917-30_23.html

J.A.W.
06-01-2013, 11:54 PM
Or, slot 8 of these en-bloc in a small airframe for 2,800/3,360hp..

http://store.4x4tuff.com/ctsme8.html
http://store.4x4tuff.com/ctsme10.html

First time Juke
06-02-2013, 07:06 AM
Or, slot 8 of these en-bloc in a small airframe for 2,800/3,360hp..

http://store.4x4tuff.com/ctsme8.html
http://store.4x4tuff.com/ctsme10.html

Yes J.A.W. this engine will do...but put it in a plane like this here VT-AERO...really small and lite AC that would have power to weight ratio nearly 1.2 ( or better ).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gYJb7NUO0TU/UamnKsF4IBI/AAAAAAAACQw/6x2CH0q02Q4/s1600/small_fighters.jpg

Even if you blew one of the engines you could still return to the runway.

J.A.W.
06-02-2013, 04:15 PM
Since most of the line drawings show non piston-engine aircraft, you'd have to do some adaptation, Juke.

My question would be, 1 prop or 2?

& if 2, then what configuration?

A Macchi MC sea-plane inline tractor type powering twin contra props?

Or Dornier 335 push/pull-style?

Another try at the Pond Racer lay-out?

A BD-5-type pusher?

All would require trans-sonic control capability, obviously..

First time Juke
06-02-2013, 11:54 PM
Since most of the line drawings show non piston-engine aircraft, you'd have to do some adaptation, Juke.

My question would be, 1 prop or 2?

& if 2, then what configuration?

A Macchi MC sea-plane inline tractor type powering twin contra props?

Or Dornier 335 push/pull-style?

Another try at the Pond Racer lay-out?

A BD-5-type pusher?

All would require trans-sonic control capability, obviously..

Yes JAW...it needs an all moving canard and 800-900-(1000) km/h justed transsonic foils and 2 x fans that may have even 5 blades each. Are those engines air cooled or liquid cooled...even air cooled could do ninely ( less complex ).

Two engines in pusher mode attached to the tail fuse like in A-10. 2-stroke engines are tight packed and thus very little drag. Composite stucture and simple retractable gear ( main gear ). All systems manually operated and mechanic ( no fly by wire ). Foil could be 6-7% thick with lotsa sweep. Genuiely fast set up..maybe supersonic in dive. :confused::cool:

J.A.W.
06-03-2013, 12:10 AM
Liquid cooled is a must.. for high specific out-put,[& even Porsche has gone there now]..
..lower frontal area ,close cowling & choice of cooling duct location is - in fact - a bonus, too.

& Juke, most importantly..
..make sure your proposal presentation graphics have the sponsors product in proper placement..

J.A.W.
06-03-2013, 12:28 AM
Juke, have you checked out the XF-84H 'Thunderschreech'?

Maybe.. you could look at a scaled down version.. with a hi-po recip' standing in for the turbo-shaft..

First time Juke
06-03-2013, 12:29 AM
Liquid cooled is a must.. for high specific out-put,[& even Porsche has gone there now]..
..lower frontal area ,close cowling & choice of cooling duct location is - in fact - a bonus, too.

& Juke, most importantly..
..make sure your proposal presentation graphics have the sponsors product in proper placement..

Right I have to look for a sponsor...anyone interested ?

Here is a close up of my fighters...VT is the one best suited to for conversion.

First time Juke
06-03-2013, 12:32 AM
Juke, have you checked out the XF-84H 'Thunderschreech'?

Maybe.. you could look at a scaled down version.. with a hi-po recip' standing in for the turbo-shaft..

I have even chatted with a man who flew it supersonic with prop turning.

J.A.W.
06-03-2013, 12:34 AM
Wow, good stuff..
& There are some A4Ks sitting mothballed in NZ..
..maybe ultilize the [unusual tailed delta] flying surfaces with a new composite prop fuselage?

First time Juke
06-03-2013, 12:36 AM
There are some A4Ks sitting mothballed in NZ..
..maybe ultilize the [unusual tailed delta] flying surfaces with a new composite prop fuselage?

This is awesome 30% more power with nitrous...any idea of the life span on nitrous ?

http://store.4x4tuff.com/ctsme8.html

That below was really fast with just an ULS Rotax..over heated often.

J.A.W.
06-03-2013, 12:42 AM
Short.. might be better on methanol/15% nitro-methane/5% castor mix fuel for a full race..

First time Juke
06-03-2013, 01:02 AM
The Bateleur above with Rotax 912 S is 280 km/h ( 320 Vne ) ship. With just 100 hp...and kite is a bout the same size as this with 450 kg Mtow. Bateleur is just 230 kg empty.

Putting the engines out will make place for the fuel in fuselage.

Wild Bill Kelso
06-03-2013, 08:40 AM
Short.. might be better on methanol/15% nitro-methane/5% castor mix fuel for a full race..

Where are you going to put all that fuel?! Running methanols issue is you use a whole lot more of it.

laminar
06-03-2013, 10:01 AM
The G-suit system was very effective. I found a brand new (US) suit (the right size), a brand new G-valve, purchased a new regulator and a new N2 bottle and installed the system in one afternoon. The entire thing weighed 23 lbs. It was not cumbersome at all. They say it increases your G tolerance by about one G. But what I found even more valuable is that it reminds you when to strain. Sometimes you're busy and strain a little later than you should for maximum effect. The G-suit made it very simple. The PM cockpit is quite small, but the G-suit did not interfere with anything. It was very comfortable. The only draw back is that it does not breathe much. It does get hot. However, the cool suit T-shirt I wear takes care of that. I could sit on the ramp in the sun and feel like I was in the air conditioning.

The G-suit is definitely not necessary for racing. The onset of G and the values are very manageable. However it does increase the comfort level with what we do in those cockpits to a great degree. I definitely intend to continue its use. I like it a lot and would recommend it to anyone.

As far as longevity, it does vent nitrogen at all times so it'll last about 15 minutes on the course with the little bottle I have. More than needed. I turn the valve on coming down the chute.

Now here's the question, guess what the entire system cost me?

Thom,

Do you worry about venting enough nitrogen into the cockpit to risk asphyxiation?

I assume you are running 100% oxygen continuous but with a tightly sealed cockpit does it concern you, how do you mitigate the risk?

-Elliot

J.A.W.
06-03-2013, 04:42 PM
Fuel choice is 'swings & roundabouts'..

Diesel does allow energy density, but those engines tend to be heavier..

Methanol blends offer a cooling effect [2-strokes esp' like to run cool]
advantage - that may balance the volume requirement disadvantage..

First time Juke
06-04-2013, 04:01 AM
Where are you going to put all that fuel?! Running methanols issue is you use a whole lot more of it.

This happened to Pond Racer since the speed on avgas were too low....you cannot add space afterwards it has to be included as a design parameter.

First time Juke
03-16-2014, 05:17 AM
I "intercepted" this kite at homebuiltsite..it is like Eric Ahlstrom prospected few years ago; http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/attachments/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/30862d1394644088-twin-fuse-race-plane-torpedoracer2.jpg

20505

First time Juke
03-16-2014, 05:20 AM
http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/attachments/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/30861d1394637523-twin-fuse-race-plane-torpedoracer.jpg

Another version...like my MISS SNOWBALL from 2000.

here the thread; http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/11392-twin-fuse-race-plane-21.html

First time Juke
03-17-2014, 09:47 AM
new thread; http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/17880-torpedos-wings-race-plane.html

btw: what is the biggest ..most efficient big block car engine we could think for this ?

First time Juke
05-05-2014, 03:11 AM
I used an entire hour to draw this !

This would have the P-51H engine ( 2150 hp ).

IcePaq
05-07-2014, 06:26 PM
The Merlin is a damn fine package considering that it's likely most automotive V8 engines are wider and would require more frontal area than the Merlin.

First time Juke
05-08-2014, 01:15 PM
The Merlin is a damn fine package considering that it's likely most automotive V8 engines are wider and would require more frontal area than the Merlin.

I agree...here is my solution with a Merlin or Allison !

First time Juke
05-08-2014, 01:31 PM
And heer is the V-8 powered sports class racer !

First time Juke
05-08-2014, 09:18 PM
Anyone wanting/willing to build one of these ?

First time Juke
05-09-2014, 01:50 PM
I am not sure..but with all moving elevator and good wing foil MACH 1 can be broken..in a prop plane in a dive...at least.

TU-95 prop turns at super sonic speed ( at the tips ).

Thunderscreech actually did brake mach 1 !

First time Juke
05-12-2014, 05:37 AM
This can only go an hour at 610 mph !? 2 hrs at 455 mph.

First time Juke
05-14-2014, 12:59 AM
Wouldn't it be a glorious day when a sports class plane beats the unlimiteds ?