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View Full Version : Why did Rare Bear pull out of Sundays Gold Race?



SkyvanDelta
09-17-2012, 09:50 PM
I was watching it online and thought Rare Bear pulled up and out of the race on the far side of the course between laps 7 and 8. Why did Rare Bear pull out? Was it the overheating issues that I've been hearing about or something else?

Sky Critter
09-17-2012, 10:02 PM
They had ADI problems as well.

SkyvanDelta
09-17-2012, 10:11 PM
Do Race Teams like Rare Bear, Strega... post their problems, or do they keep it private?

Was Rare Bear on lap 7.5 when he pulled out of the race?

Race5
09-17-2012, 10:22 PM
He also cut pylon four.

Sky Critter
09-17-2012, 10:30 PM
Do Race Teams like Rare Bear, Strega... post their problems, or do they keep it private?

Was Rare Bear on lap 7.5 when he pulled out of the race?

Some teams are open, some are not. Precious Metal has shared a lot of info this year as well as the Sanders teams. Lewis keeps thing pretty quiet. Most of the info comes from those that have some direct connection to team members.

Hans Oberev
09-17-2012, 11:31 PM
Rare Bear is one high maintenance bird. I couldn't help notice September Fury parked next to the bear sound asleep as the entire crew worked on #77 Saturday night. Funny where they placed in the race! You have to wonder how long this effort is going to last. What's the definition of insanity? They replaced the sensor and it looks although not confirmed, they did not solve the over heating problem. Could it have been a bad head gasket? Do you do a leak down test on every cylinder? Do other teams lend their brain power? The Bear unable to reach max. power for the last several years is getting old.

RAD2LTR
09-18-2012, 01:34 AM
Rare Bear is one high maintenance bird. I couldn't help notice September Fury parked next to the bear sound asleep as the entire crew worked on #77 Saturday night. Funny where they placed in the race! You have to wonder how long this effort is going to last. What's the definition of insanity? They replaced the sensor and it looks although not confirmed, they did not solve the over heating problem. Could it have been a bad head gasket? Do you do a leak down test on every cylinder? Do other teams lend their brain power? The Bear unable to reach max. power for the last several years is getting old.

Umm, Rare bear doesn't have headgaskets... The whole cylinder comes off the case. Its not water cooled in the traditional sense (Like a Merlin.) I think a lot of knowledge was lost when the bear changed hands and key team members either left or were let go. I don't know why Rare Bear has had the technical issues that it has, I agree it would be nice to see it get back into its winning ways. I don't think Sept Fury has the potential to go as fast as the bear, apparently the wing just doesn't like to go that fast. :dunno: I'm told the Sea Fury wing is fast up till about 480 or so then it has trouble going faster. The wing on the bear will do a lot faster than 520, so that might be why they continue to try and uncover the mysteries of making the bear go fast reliably again.

Will

Gibbs
09-18-2012, 04:12 AM
... I'm told the Sea Fury wing is fast up till about 480 or so then it has trouble going faster. The wing on the bear will do a lot faster than 520, so that might be why they continue to try and uncover the mysteries of making the bear go fast reliably again.

Will

Does somebody know if or how top teams are modyfing their airfoils (and I explicit guess not the skin)?

From what I understand a stock Sea Fury airfoil (as known laminar like P-51) is much thinner than Bearcat's and therefore should be theoretically visible faster than the thicker F8F airfoil? :dunno:

Gibbs

grampi
09-18-2012, 06:30 AM
It could be that RB has just found it's limit, and that limit just isn't as fast as planes like Strega, or the now non-racing Dago....

Hans Oberev
09-18-2012, 08:43 AM
Umm, Rare bear doesn't have headgaskets..

Well that's the problem than, duh! lol!

RAD2LTR
09-18-2012, 09:11 AM
Well that's the problem than, duh! lol!

Hahaha, imagine having to change 18 headgaskets :eek:Thanks, I'll pass. In some respects, air cooled radials are much more simple, but with lots more moving parts. I'm not sure if there is a gasket/seal between each cylinder and the case or not. To solve the cylinder head temp issues on an air cooled motor there aren't a lot of options, more air flow at the cost of frontal drag (smaller spinner) a spray bar that blows water backward over the motor (It might already have this, I'm not sure) or perhaps running a richer mixture with a possible loss of some power. There might be others, but they all have trade offs.

Will

Nobody
09-18-2012, 09:15 AM
It could be that RB has just found it's limit, and that limit just isn't as fast as planes like Strega, or the now non-racing Dago....

Isn't Rare Bear's limit 538 mph? The speed record it set decades ago? What they need is a hot stick who knows how to fly it fast and isn't afraid of it. See: Lyle and John Penney. Yes, those two are no longer available but where's the super-jock to replace them? Get the right stick in there and they'll all get motivated to make the RB king again.

AcroGimp
09-18-2012, 09:17 AM
Isn't Rare Bear's limit 538 mph? The speed record it set decades ago? What they need is a hot stick who knows how to fly it fast and isn't afraid of it. See: Lyle and John Penney. Yes, those two are no longer available but where's the super-jock to replace them? Get the right stick in there and they'll all get motivated to make the RB king again.If Strega retirement is looming, Steveo might be looking for a ride....:D

Bob
09-18-2012, 09:37 AM
Isn't Rare Bear's limit 538 mph? The speed record it set decades ago? What they need is a hot stick who knows how to fly it fast and isn't afraid of it. See: Lyle and John Penney. Yes, those two are no longer available but where's the super-jock to replace them? Get the right stick in there and they'll all get motivated to make the RB king again.

WTF?????? Hot Stick?????? Affraid??????? You my friend are an ass.

Randy Haskin
09-18-2012, 09:47 AM
Isn't Rare Bear's limit 538 mph? The speed record it set decades ago? What they need is a hot stick who knows how to fly it fast and isn't afraid of it. See: Lyle and John Penney. Yes, those two are no longer available but where's the super-jock to replace them? Get the right stick in there and they'll all get motivated to make the RB king again.

You're barking way up the wrong tree with a comment like this, at least with respect to the reason why Rare Bear has not been going fast this last week. There's no magic that a stick actuator can accomplish to fix engine issues from the cockpit.

That being said...if anybody can fly it "faster", Skip Holm is your man.

Hans Oberev
09-18-2012, 10:03 AM
There's no magic that a stick actuator can accomplish to fix engine issues from the cockpit

Stick actuator? That's perfect! Love it!

questioning the "Tiger factor" in specific pilots is dangerous territory. Looks like that guy stepped in it. We all do fro time to time so just learn from it and move on. The biggest mistake you can make going forward is to try in defend yourself. Trust me...I know, I made that mistake awhile back with the Ridge Runner III team on this site. There is a fine line between expressing an opinion and crossing the deadline!

grampi
09-18-2012, 11:34 AM
Isn't Rare Bear's limit 538 mph? The speed record it set decades ago? What they need is a hot stick who knows how to fly it fast and isn't afraid of it. See: Lyle and John Penney. Yes, those two are no longer available but where's the super-jock to replace them? Get the right stick in there and they'll all get motivated to make the RB king again.

RB has NEVER run the kind of speeds Strega is currently running AROUND THE RACE COURSE.....

BUD_XXX
09-18-2012, 11:43 AM
I'll tell you, from what I saw from the VOS area, that the Bear could not turn as tight between 4-6, and Strega gained huge ground there every lap.

I don't know if the Bear could not turn as tight, or if it was pilot or whatever, but for sure Strega gained ground every lap, wayyy in the back of the course....


As far as overheating...I'd like to see the telemetry!

AAFO_WSagar
09-18-2012, 11:50 AM
What they need is a hot stick who knows how to fly it fast and isn't afraid of it.I'll not argue that a race pilot would have to "lace their boots real tight" to be better than Lyle, Tiger, Skip, "the kid" etc... but I don't think the word "afraid" is fair to Stu... When the airplane was working well for him and he didn't have the constant distraction of trying to watch an instrument panel that is shaking so badly at speed that he can barely see it, he flew the course pretty darn well.. (his qual speed clearly shows that he's in control of the airplane when it's working)

Would Skip fly her faster? Would love to get the chance to know, Is Stu afraid of the airplane? I sincerely doubt it..

Rampman
09-18-2012, 12:18 PM
None of the top unlimiteds ever show their max speed potential unless everything is working perfectly. It's pretty rare that you get more than one top plane in that position in the same year.

The Strega vs Bear and Dago Red vs Bear duels of the past were truely special. It's just the nature of the sport.

Was Stu supposed to hold it wide open untill it blew up? Everyone has heard the airplane is a handful even when everything is working properly. I think he did the best he could with what he had.

440_Magnum
09-18-2012, 12:26 PM
The engineer in me would sincerely love to know exactly why they were (apparently- do we REALLY know?) having high cylinder head temps this year when (again- apparently) the cowl cooling air flow hasn't changed radically since the boil-off oil cooling was added.

I know that unless I went and worked for Mr. Lewis, I'll probably never get to know those specifics.

As for speculation from the outside, I think too much of it is just going to be talking out of wrong body orifices since we don't have direct access to the facts. We can guess all we want, but the team has smart guys with direct access to the hardware who can figure out what happened and why. For WHATEVER reason we may or may not know, the bird was limited in power this year and it was pretty obvious. But that's about as specific as it gets from "out here."

You know there IS such a thing as a long run of bad luck... which all the smarts, money, and skill in the world and a pilot with cojones of spent uranium can't change.

The Strega team REALLY have brought an "A" game the last 3 years that IMO hasn't been seen since the Dago Red / Kerch years. Did you hear Steven talking about what they do after every race? Pull the cam racks, re-torque the head nuts, and completely re-adjust the valve train in addition to screens and plugs and all the routine stuff? I mean... wow. Don't call the Bear a "high maintenance beast" compared to that! Compared to Dreadnought where they check the screens and change the plugs- yeah. But Strega is a high-maintenance beast in the extreme, definitely comparable to the Bear. The difference is that, through a combination of preparedness, not NEEDING to use the whole wick to win, (and yes... good luck the last few years), they won again and did it with style. But in the back of my mind I can't help but think that one electrical glitch taking out the ADI, one snapped valve finger, one backfire, and Strega could have been on the ground early too. Tiger has been there and done that quite a few times in the past, lest we forget. There's a LOT that can go wrong in any of these machines, even the "stockers!"

John
09-18-2012, 01:04 PM
Does somebody know if or how top teams are modyfing their airfoils (and I explicit guess not the skin)?

From what I understand a stock Sea Fury airfoil (as known laminar like P-51) is much thinner than Bearcat's and therefore should be theoretically visible faster than the thicker F8F airfoil? :dunno:

Gibbs

Gibbs, so I had typed a nice (long) response to your question and it got sent into oblivion. :mad:

From what I understand the Sea Fury wing airfoil set up has a better critical mach number than the thick 23000 Naca series airfoils on the Bear. Bear airfoil was modified some time back and tested, then put back to stock. Looks like the wing root area has been cleaned up since.

Rampman
09-18-2012, 01:07 PM
Well said 440 magnum. Everybody forget about the rash of bearing failures Stega had before this run of championships? I think they sat out 2 years in a row.

It ain't easy getting these old engines to run the power levels needed to win the gold race. I think luck plays a huge part.

Smee Again
09-18-2012, 01:07 PM
440_Magnum is exactly right about Strega, and ANY highly strung Gold race Mustang, for that matter. What he just described is the bare minimum required when racing at that level. When you're pulling well over 100" MAP and in excess of 3400 RPM, even the tiniest glitch can set a nasty chain of events in motion. So you build the best you can, prepare the best you can, maintain the best you can, and then pray to the gods of HP for the rest. :)

SA

Ebehne
09-18-2012, 01:51 PM
I think that all of these racers have some share of luck, but the last few years Strega has looked pretty amazing.

In regard to the bear, I think that the last few years have really put into perspective how hard Lyle and the "old" crew worked to keep that bird competitive with hardly any money. Maybe more of the old crew should have been kept around, if nothing else just for their experience at getting huge problems fixed at all hours of the night during race week.

The bear used to always be fun to root for because she was a massive underdog (I remember them selling used spark plugs to get money for a new race motor). It feels a little different now, like more money but less passion.

Best of luck to the crew/owner/pilot in finding that right combination of passion and luck in the next year. I'll be expecting to see the bear return to her former glory in 2013!

Hans Oberev
09-18-2012, 03:05 PM
No question, Tiger has his race program totally dialed in! And yes, Bear's issues do put into perspective what Lyle accomplished! I remember not long ago when all the Merlyns were crapping out and it became a roundy show. I don't know about luck. Tiger has found something huge and the Lewis team is still searching. Did Bear have the three blade prop on her when she ran above 500? There was some pit talk about that Sat night. Heard the turbulence beat the crap out of the rudder.

Ron101502
09-18-2012, 04:24 PM
It's my understanding from earlier posts on this site that the aero mods to the wing were worth about 10 knots and also lowered the stalling speed but it reduce the air flow in to the carb and oil coolers, also a crew member told me they needed to do the same mod to the horizontal stab. The airplane also stalled about 2 knots less. I also read somewhere that Dave Cornell didn't like the mod so it was removed, he thought he could win on horsepower alone. Another question is if they uses nitrous oxide, Lyle told me it was worth about 800 horsepower, about half from lower induction temps and the rest from being able to burn more fuel. Remember the airplane went over 541 on the straight line speed record passes, and was making (if you can believe what has been published) about 4400 horsepower. The announcer at Reno said they were making only 3800 which was the same as Strega. I'm just guessing but I don't think 4400 HP would make for a 500 mph lap without aero mods but what do I know? I've never heard of the Bear having CHT problems. Also I remember last year seeing water from the boil off system coming out the tail, didn't see that this year. Of course an ADI failure at full power could be really bad, if that was the case he acted quick enough to land under power.

If I was rich I'd buy Voodoo and do the GG mods like Bob Button said he was gonna do a few years ago, then put in a Nixon motor. At any rate my wife says she won't go to the race anymore as she's tired of seeing Strega win by half a lap at cruise power and she predicts many others will feel the same which will really hurt RARAs financial situation. Hope she's wrong.

taglialavore
09-18-2012, 04:35 PM
IMHO to win you need the exact four components.

THE PILOT
The Crew
the MONEY
And the Racer

As happens in every final winner result, the proper combination of these factors at THAT moment always gives the winner. Letīs name it airracing, car racing, bikes...

I remember some years ago Lyle was close to have all the beans together and made a legend in air racing, and HE is in the Hall of Fame. He was the pilot for that RB assisted by that CREW people, in that glorius moments.
Of couse Iīm sure the money was not enough, but they did it well also.

Sorry to write about without knowing it all but thatīs the way I saw it.

FlyKidChris
09-18-2012, 07:07 PM
Also I remember last year seeing water from the boil off system coming out the tail, didn't see that this year.

Nice post, Ron.

This weekend, I made the same observation about the lack of steam from the tail.

BellCobraIV
09-18-2012, 11:22 PM
IMHO to win you need the exact four components.

THE PILOT
The Crew
the MONEY
And the Racer

As happens in every final winner result, the proper combination of these factors at THAT moment always gives the winner. Letīs name it airracing, car racing, bikes...

I remember some years ago Lyle was close to have all the beans together and made a legend in air racing, and HE is in the Hall of Fame. He was the pilot for that RB assisted by that CREW people, in that glorius moments.
Of couse Iīm sure the money was not enough, but they did it well also.

Sorry to write about without knowing it all but thatīs the way I saw it.

The Lyle factor in reality was bigger than life, when Lyle was racing the Bearcat he could and did make all the decisions that needed to be made in that moment. It was his airplane, he was the pilot AND he was a monster of a competitor. Lyle thought about the next race from the moment he climbed out of the plane after the gold race all year long until they were headed down Lemmon Valley rd. and the pace plane said you've got a race.
In my opinion Strega is the fastest racer around at this moment in time. 232 and Hoot Gibson, did their job, the bearcat kill markings were priceless. However Greg Shaw would have taken the pictures of the kill markings glued them supersized on the Rare.Bear hangar wall to motivate the Bear team. I am not saying the Bear's team isn't motivated and good just that Shaw would be on a rampage against 232 after that. Stevo, Tiger, LD Nixon and Jose Florez and company have it all together and it shows.

Randy Haskin
09-19-2012, 05:56 AM
I remember last year seeing water from the boil off system coming out the tail, didn't see that this year.

It was most definitely venting when the Bear taxied back in after the race.

Nobody
09-19-2012, 10:14 AM
I'll not argue that a race pilot would have to "lace their boots real tight" to be better than Lyle, Tiger, Skip, "the kid" etc... but I don't think the word "afraid" is fair to Stu... When the airplane was working well for him and he didn't have the constant distraction of trying to watch an instrument panel that is shaking so badly at speed that he can barely see it, he flew the course pretty darn well.. (his qual speed clearly shows that he's in control of the airplane when it's working)

Would Skip fly her faster? Would love to get the chance to know, Is Stu afraid of the airplane? I sincerely doubt it..


I'd bet Lyle had a healthy fear of his airplane every time he climbed in. Was he truly fearless? He sure looked it didn't he! A pilot who climbs into an airplane without the knowledge that this flight could kill him, even a 152, is either an idiot or not well trained. (See: JFK junior.) Lyle was one of the rare aviators and Hinton's kid seems to be as well. You think Steve senior trained junior well in the knowledge that these airplanes can kill you in an instant so pay attention and be ready for that moment when it all goes to hell? You think that doesn't involve a healthy fear of the next 20 minutes at 100 feet and 490 mph? Lyle had RB blow up in his face many times and in 1992 he actually stayed on the course for a few seconds as the engine came apart. Cool customer. Aimed for 14, knew he couldn't make it, landed on closed 18 and was calm as could be when he came back to the pits. That's what Rare Bear needs again. I would love to see the kid step over to the Rare Bear cockpit--maybe that's the boost they need to work out the bugs and get back on top.

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.

440_Magnum
09-19-2012, 10:38 AM
It was most definitely venting when the Bear taxied back in after the race.

Another thing: If they were having cylinder head overheating, they probably never got to push the kind of power that would even reject massive amounts of heat to the oil, so the boiler never really had to work hard. Its sorta like a car with an electric cooling fan-how much that fan runs depends on how much power you're demanding from the engine.

440_Magnum
09-19-2012, 10:44 AM
The Lyle factor in reality was bigger than life, when Lyle was racing the Bearcat he could and did make all the decisions that needed to be made in that
oment. It was his airplane, he was the pilot AND he was a monster of a competitor.

As time passes, it becomes more and more amazing to me what you guys did during those years, John.

Hans Oberev
09-19-2012, 10:20 PM
Ron, I read that the plane can not carry enough nitrous to run it long enough to make a difference. Kind of like KERS in F1...maybe use that brief surge to make a pass but that's it.
I also heard from a reliable source that their wing was not the best design for speed. Maybe have to make so much power to overcome that the other systems just can't handle it.
Won't have to worry about next yr being a boring race cuz Strega is not running.

440_Magnum
09-20-2012, 11:20 AM
Ron, I read that the plane can not carry enough nitrous to run it long enough to make a difference. Kind of like KERS in F1...maybe use that brief surge to make a pass but that's it.
I also heard from a reliable source that their wing was not the best design for speed. Maybe have to make so much power to overcome that the other systems just can't handle it.
Won't have to worry about next yr being a boring race cuz Strega is not running.

Suggest you dig back (use the search tools) and look at posts that John Slack has made in past years about the Bear during the time his dad owned it, especially when they made the world record speed run over New Mexico The Bear carries more nitrous than just a huff for a pass. How often they actually USED it (other than the speed record run) is another matter.

The wing... well sure. You can look up the airfoil that a Bearcat uses compared to a Mustang or Sea Fury, and its definitely not as good for sustained high speed. That's a given, but that's just one factor of many. The Bear is light, and small, with a smaller "wetted area" (less skin drag) than either a Mustang or Sea Fury, and has a superb race canopy designed and built by Lyle himself IIRC, a very tight cowl that reduces the drag penalty for carrying a radial instead of an inline (232 also has a wonderfully tight cowl and spinner), exhaust ejectors that aid in scavenging out the cowl and increasing cooling airflow and add thrust (same for the Sea Furies), and a thousand other things that help offset a less ideal wing. Any number of people with a lot of knowledge believe that if *EVERYTHING* about the Bear is working right, it can run with the fastest Mustangs. Sure, whenever anyone says that- I don't care if its a test pilot who has flown the plane, or engineer or mechanic with 50 years experience or just me sitting on an office chair, they're making an estimate and using some judgement so there's room for error. If someone ever says categorically that the Bear is slower than Strega or that the Bear is faster than Strega, then I smell an overstatement. the unknowns in every engineer's or pilot's assessment of each airplane are precisely why they take them out and race them, and that's why Tiger and Steven sounded disappointed that the Bear was having problems.

AAFO_WSagar
09-20-2012, 12:17 PM
I'd bet Lyle had a healthy fear of his airplane every time he climbed in. Was he truly fearless?John would be the better one to respond to this but I truly feel that Lyle was, indeed, fearless... at least when it came to racing the Bear. I'm pretty sure that even if there was some "fear" in Lyle when he raced, his extreme competitive nature pushed that emotion so far back into his being that you could, truly, call him a fearless racer. Skip Holm, Tiger D, and now "the kid", might well have that same nature. In Stephen's case, I think exposure to flight from just after conception and pure genetics, make him such a natural aviator, there is probably little about the process that actually induces "fear" for him..

Back on topic with this slightly :OT-2: branch of the original topic :o .. John, would you agree about Lyle? Some things might well have scared him but I'd bet flying the Bear on a race course wasn't one of them.

Hans Oberev
09-20-2012, 12:27 PM
440 Magnum, well said! Go Bear!

Race5
09-20-2012, 01:06 PM
It was most definitely venting when the Bear taxied back in after the race.
I think this just shows the level of refinement over the years in their boiler system. When operating at it's peak efficiency a boiler should vent very little "steam" over board. The water droplets should collect and be returned to the liquid in the tank. The first year it belched ADI out the tail when running in a three point stance. Last year it didn't pump fluid out, but did produce a lot of steam. This year, very little steam at any time.

AAFO_WSagar
09-20-2012, 01:13 PM
I think this just shows the level of refinement over the years in their boiler system. When operating at it's peak efficiency a boiler should vent very little "steam" over board. The water droplets should collect and be returned to the liquid in the tank. The first year it belched ADI out the tail when running in a three point stance. Last year it didn't pump fluid out, but did produce a lot of steam. This year, very little steam at any time.Race5.. I'm not sure that's correct, the way I understand the boiloffs, they "consume" the coolant by venting it overboard and the system adds more fluid as it's "boiled off". In a large steam heat or steam plant, they do have recovery systems to keep the fluid more-or-less captive and have to add little "water" to the system. Again, I think the venting is necessary in the aircraft system. The reason we didn't see steam may have been due to atmospheric conditions, lighting, etc...

DT.. correct me if I'm wrong please..

RAD2LTR
09-20-2012, 01:25 PM
The boil off system might have been part of the issue. Friday night as I was walking the pits in the dark I overheard part of a converstation between Mr Cornell and Steve H. Jr. It sounded like there might be an issue with getting an air bubble somewhere in the boiloff system that causes issues. It sounds like the reason is because the tank sits at an angle and if the water sloshes it traps air or something. I'm not 100% sure they were talking about the boiloff system or not, but it sounded like it.

Mr Cornell also had an interesting story about riding around in Jay Leno's tank car and loosing an oil line somewhere in L.A. Apparently it made quite a mess.

Will

ChrisMX105
09-20-2012, 01:34 PM
Without getting into gnarly details and top secret info I can assure you the boiloff is working as intended with 0 issues:)

Ebehne
09-20-2012, 01:43 PM
Any number of people with a lot of knowledge believe that if *EVERYTHING* about the Bear is working right, it can run with the fastest Mustangs. Sure, whenever anyone says that- I don't care if its a test pilot who has flown the plane, or engineer or mechanic with 50 years experience or just me sitting on an office chair, they're making an estimate and using some judgement so there's room for error. If someone ever says categorically that the Bear is slower than Strega or that the Bear is faster than Strega, then I smell an overstatement. the unknowns in every engineer's or pilot's assessment of each airplane are precisely why they take them out and race them, and that's why Tiger and Steven sounded disappointed that the Bear was having problems.

I'm pretty sure that anyone who categorically says that a healthy bear can't run with mustangs wasn't at Stead in 2003 on Friday. Its unfortunate that it seems to always take everything going right for that plane to be THAT fast, but that just seems to be the nature of this particular beast. I'm sure we will see it run with a mustang again, the question now is which mustang? Anyone want to split the cost of Voodoo with me?

440_Magnum
09-20-2012, 02:20 PM
I think this just shows the level of refinement over the years in their boiler system. When operating at it's peak efficiency a boiler should vent very little "steam" over board. The water droplets should collect and be returned to the liquid in the tank. The first year it belched ADI out the tail when running in a three point stance. Last year it didn't pump fluid out, but did produce a lot of steam. This year, very little steam at any time.

Venting the water/alcohol vapor overboard is the ONLY way that a boiloff system rejects heat away from the airplane. If there were enough cooling around the boiler tank to re-condense the vapor, then there's enough cooling to cool the oil directly and there would be no need for the boiler. Does that make sense? Changing the state from liquid to vapor requires a lot of calories of heat, but those same calories have to be removed from the VAPOR to change it back to liquid, and that can't happen without some form of heat-exchanger and the drag of a heat exchanger is exactly what the boiler tries to eliminate. Basically the vapor leaving the A/C takes the heat with it, so if vapor isn't coming out that means that not much heat is going in.

That said, the first year when it puked LIQUID out... no need for that! The vapor should ideally be invisible until it hits cooler air and begins to condense.

boomtown
09-20-2012, 05:54 PM
18890
18891
These are on takeoff heading into form up on Sunday. You can see her venting a little.

C_roundy
09-21-2012, 01:01 AM
As time passes, it becomes more and more amazing to me what you guys did during those years, John.

440_Magnum, I agree more than words can say.

C_roundy
09-21-2012, 01:40 AM
I'm pretty sure that anyone who categorically says that a healthy bear can't run with mustangs wasn't at Stead in 2003 on Friday. Its unfortunate that it seems to always take everything going right for that plane to be THAT fast, but that just seems to be the nature of this particular beast. I'm sure we will see it run with a mustang again, the question now is which mustang? Anyone want to split the cost of Voodoo with me?

Ebehne, Yes Sir , I want very much to split the cost with you for said superb Mustang, for Rare Bear to finally fight well against (in this decade}, before they all stop being campaigned forever.....

C_roundy
09-21-2012, 02:10 AM
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.

I stand morally, against your point sir; Lyle Shelton lived to a ripe old age, and he was indeed BOLD, for so many steps, all in a row, in his way.

C_roundy
09-21-2012, 02:44 AM
Anyone who doesn't already understand just how awesome "Rare Bear" was, is, and can be in the future, should do a good search through this web-site, and read all the truth that has been written !!!

I mean way, way back thru the archives.

grampi
09-21-2012, 06:21 AM
Anyone who doesn't already understand just how awesome "Rare Bear" was, is, and can be in the future, should do a good search through this web-site, and read all the truth that has been written !!!

I mean way, way back thru the archives.

Silly post....

BellCobraIV
09-22-2012, 06:32 AM
John would be the better one to respond to this but I truly feel that Lyle was, indeed, fearless... at least when it came to racing the Bear. I'm pretty sure that even if there was some "fear" in Lyle when he raced, his extreme competitive nature pushed that emotion so far back into his being that you could, truly, call him a fearless racer. Skip Holm, Tiger D, and now "the kid", might well have that same nature. In Stephen's case, I think exposure to flight from just after conception and pure genetics, make him such a natural aviator, there is probably little about the process that actually induces "fear" for him..

Back on topic with this slightly :OT-2: branch of the original topic :o .. John, would you agree about Lyle? Some things might well have scared him but I'd bet flying the Bear on a race course wasn't one of them.

Wayne,
Lyle had a healthy respect for the fact that the Bearcat could kill him. BUT he did not fear it. The only time in all the years I ever saw him even crack a little bit was when he pulled out of a Saturday heat race after the flame panel ripped loose (bolts had been left out, then exhaust and airflow from the cowling exit put exhaust straight into the accessorie section.) Lyle called a Mayday, gained altitude, lined up to get her down rolled out shut down. All while the exhaust was still blasting heat at the firewall. During the debrief in the pit transport after a slug of Gatoraid he just calmly looked at the crew and said, "man for about fifteen seconds I thought I was going to have to jump out of that thing. Nope I'd say no fear from Lyle, but then again how many other Gold race pilots have you ever seen takinv a nap under the wing before Sundays Gold using the parachute for pillow? The man was a monster of a competitor. The, likes of which may never come this way again end of story..Like I have said before many times, Lyle, Tiger, Skip, Darryl, and Bob Love. That is my all time top 5. With Stevo getting thrown into that mix as well.

BellCobraIV
09-22-2012, 06:42 AM
BTW we won on Sundays Gold the next day. We thrashed for hours, and metal master from Wichita " Bam Bam" Graham straightened the exhaust panel like it never had an issue. While Gotdon Symone and Carl Schuute replaced the burnt wiring. In addition to everything else that was "typical post, race " maintenance from the rest of the guys.

BellCobraIV
09-22-2012, 06:52 AM
I stand morally, against your point sir; Lyle Shelton lived to a ripe old age, and he was indeed BOLD, for so many steps, all in a row, in his way.

Well said, and thank you for that.

John H
09-22-2012, 11:09 AM
BTW we won on Sundays Gold the next day. We thrashed for hours, and metal master from Wichita " Bam Bam" Graham straightened the exhaust panel like it never had an issue. While Gotdon Symone and Carl Schuute replaced the burnt wiring. In addition to everything else that was "typical post, race " maintenance from the rest of the guys.

That sounds like 1988? I remember the Sat mayday on the 17th was hairy . Lyle hadn't won Reno since 1975 so 1988 was huge.

John H
09-23-2012, 11:22 PM
Pretty sure it was 1988, Lyle on Skyfire says the crew was working all night. It was a hairy mayday on Saturday, which was filled with maydays (including ground loops of David Price and Jimmy Leeward). Other than Texas 1990 Sat's heat race was one Tsunami's only wins too, 470 average speed, just thought for sure Steve sr was going to demolish everyone the next day, but the Adi failed during the Gold. I picked a great day to see my first ever Reno race (first airrace was Hamilton in May, 1988.)

Leo
09-25-2012, 11:45 AM
As I remember it all bur a couple of them maydayed out. I have video of LARS heading into the dirt in front of us and remember swinging the camera to and fro trying to catch everything. They ran out of runways to put them on.

CWTECH
01-29-2013, 07:27 PM
Rare Bear is one high maintenance bird. I couldn't help notice September Fury parked next to the bear sound asleep as the entire crew worked on #77 Saturday night. Funny where they placed in the race! You have to wonder how long this effort is going to last. What's the definition of insanity? They replaced the sensor and it looks although not confirmed, they did not solve the over heating problem. Could it have been a bad head gasket? Do you do a leak down test on every cylinder? Do other teams lend their brain power? The Bear unable to reach max. power for the last several years is getting old.

Head gasket????????????? Nooooooo.

CWTECH
01-29-2013, 07:31 PM
Hahaha, imagine having to change 18 headgaskets :eek:Thanks, I'll pass. In some respects, air cooled radials are much more simple, but with lots more moving parts. I'm not sure if there is a gasket/seal between each cylinder and the case or not. To solve the cylinder head temp issues on an air cooled motor there aren't a lot of options, more air flow at the cost of frontal drag (smaller spinner) a spray bar that blows water backward over the motor (It might already have this, I'm not sure) or perhaps running a richer mixture with a possible loss of some power. There might be others, but they all have trade offs.

Will

Not a air cooled electric (motor) either............ Aircooled engine, yes!

CWTECH
01-29-2013, 07:37 PM
The engineer in me would sincerely love to know exactly why they were (apparently- do we REALLY know?) having high cylinder head temps this year when (again- apparently) the cowl cooling air flow hasn't changed radically since the boil-off oil cooling was added.

I know that unless I went and worked for Mr. Lewis, I'll probably never get to know those specifics.

As for speculation from the outside, I think too much of it is just going to be talking out of wrong body orifices since we don't have direct access to the facts. We can guess all we want, but the team has smart guys with direct access to the hardware who can figure out what happened and why. For WHATEVER reason we may or may not know, the bird was limited in power this year and it was pretty obvious. But that's about as specific as it gets from "out here."

You know there IS such a thing as a long run of bad luck... which all the smarts, money, and skill in the world and a pilot with cojones of spent uranium can't change.

The Strega team REALLY have brought an "A" game the last 3 years that IMO hasn't been seen since the Dago Red / Kerch years. Did you hear Steven talking about what they do after every race? Pull the cam racks, re-torque the head nuts, and completely re-adjust the valve train in addition to screens and plugs and all the routine stuff? I mean... wow. Don't call the Bear a "high maintenance beast" compared to that! Compared to Dreadnought where they check the screens and change the plugs- yeah. But Strega is a high-maintenance beast in the extreme, definitely comparable to the Bear. The difference is that, through a combination of preparedness, not NEEDING to use the whole wick to win, (and yes... good luck the last few years), they won again and did it with style. But in the back of my mind I can't help but think that one electrical glitch taking out the ADI, one snapped valve finger, one backfire, and Strega could have been on the ground early too. Tiger has been there and done that quite a few times in the past, lest we forget. There's a LOT that can go wrong in any of these machines, even the "stockers!"

Very nice! Some realism.....................

Leo
01-30-2013, 08:50 AM
Strega has paid it's dues over the years. The joke used to be that the reason 14-32 was in such good condition was that Tiger oiled it good every year...

Snidely
06-03-2013, 07:12 PM
I'd bet Lyle had a healthy fear of his airplane every time he climbed in. Was he truly fearless? He sure looked it didn't he! A pilot who climbs into an airplane without the knowledge that this flight could kill him, even a 152, is either an idiot or not well trained. (See: JFK junior.) Lyle was one of the rare aviators and Hinton's kid seems to be as well. You think Steve senior trained junior well in the knowledge that these airplanes can kill you in an instant so pay attention and be ready for that moment when it all goes to hell? You think that doesn't involve a healthy fear of the next 20 minutes at 100 feet and 490 mph? Lyle had RB blow up in his face many times and in 1992 he actually stayed on the course for a few seconds as the engine came apart. Cool customer. Aimed for 14, knew he couldn't make it, landed on closed 18 and was calm as could be when he came back to the pits. That's what Rare Bear needs again. I would love to see the kid step over to the Rare Bear cockpit--maybe that's the boost they need to work out the bugs and get back on top.

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. There are no old, bold pilots.

Well said, and I thank you for it. To quote Bob Crippen (1st Shuttle co-pilot), in answer to the question "Are you scared?"; He said "No, but if you don't have some anxiety, you don't really understand the problem." A little cowardice is often a good thing in a pilot. Jimmy showed us all just how close to the edge these folks operate at. I don't know who said it here first, but "Go fast until you see God, and turn left." is a pretty good mission statement. Having been over 300 in a new experimental, I suggest that judgment is more important than 'courage'. Old/Bold? Well little Bobby Hoover comes to mind. He took on the FAA!

Snidely

(Nell, railroad tracks, and a little light bondage, apply within)

Big_Jim
06-03-2013, 07:23 PM
Well said, and I thank you for it. To quote Bob Crippen (1st Shuttle co-pilot), in answer to the question "Are you scared?"; He said "No, but if you don't have some anxiety, you don't really understand the problem." A little cowardice is often a good thing in a pilot. Jimmy showed us all just how close to the edge these folks operate at. I don't know who said it here first, but "Go fast until you see God, and turn left." is a pretty good mission statement. Having been over 300 in a new experimental, I suggest that judgment is more important than 'courage'. Old/Bold? Well little Bobby Hoover comes to mind. He took on the FAA!

Snidely

(Nell, railroad tracks, and a little light bondage, apply within)

There is a great quote out of the movie Threshold: The Blue Angels Experience. They are interviewing solo pilot Skip Umstead (who was later killed in 1973 in the last flight of the Blues in the F-4 Phantom) and he says "You don't want to scare yourself every show....just maybe one in five." But it shows that there is a healthy respect for the airplane, it's own capabilities, and more important you own limitations as a pilot.