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boomtown
09-15-2012, 09:27 PM
Was sitting in the grandstands today watching Patriots Demo Team and their announcer delcared that the Airboss had given them a "Knock it Off" order and supsended their routine. This happened right after a VERY low pass show center over runway 8. When I say low I mean man height. Did anyone hear anything on Race Control or hear anything on this. Great routine by the way. VERY agressive though.

Leo
09-15-2012, 09:32 PM
Been wondering the same thing. A LOT of animated talking going on out on the ramp among the pilots.
I assumed it was that pass. Anyone know the real reason?

goldfinger
09-15-2012, 10:10 PM
Yeah it had to be that pass. I liked how they played the lowrider music too But haven't heard anything official. Also a very tight performance.

Ron101502
09-16-2012, 08:55 AM
they did the same pass on Friday, maybe they were given a warning and didn't heed it????

gv71
09-16-2012, 08:41 PM
talked to them and the air boss said they cut the corner but video showed they didn't and said even got an apology. it wasn't the low pass

Greg

John H
09-16-2012, 10:00 PM
Its funny, my friend Fred always mentions stuff like this: They are the Patriot jet team with their red white and blue theme, but their jets are FOREIGN IMPORTS!!!!!!!!!

Mike51
09-17-2012, 01:59 AM
Its funny, my friend Fred always mentions stuff like this: They are the Patriot jet team with their red white and blue theme, but their jets are FOREIGN IMPORTS!!!!!!!!!
Not only that, but Commie foreign imports! :p

Kevin L
09-17-2012, 07:53 AM
Defectors that have seen the light!

Suds
09-17-2012, 08:59 AM
Defectors that have seen the light!

That's funny!

My friend and I were commenting that their paints scheme seems very "Soviet-esque". Paint those stars red on their tails and you're all set!

Good display and flying skills, definitely. But if I hear "God Bless the USA" at one more airshow I'm going postal.

glider90
09-18-2012, 11:32 AM
Glad the low pass was not the issue. Saturday's was pretty low...
Jim

JCP
09-18-2012, 07:35 PM
FYI............That would be a DQ for the Unlimiteds and we've already seen what an L-39 looks like when it "ties the record" a few thousand feet behind where this photo was taken. Totally unnecessary and irresponsible in my opinion and that is the absolute LAST kind of risk taking that we needed this year. I have no idea about the "Knock it off" but I would be glad if it were for this pass and the Fed's slapped them for it.

JC

Leo
09-19-2012, 09:00 AM
I agree. I had a head full of "what ifs" after that pass. Sure glad Sunday's was higher.

AcroGimp
09-19-2012, 09:11 AM
That Patriots are all pro's, former military demo, all with day jobs, and they fly an excellent routine. There was no issue if FAA apologized, seriously, when do they ever apologize?

They have crafted an outstanding show and are an absolute joy to experience.

A good airshow performer creates the illusion of risk through extreme precision, and these guys are top shelf.

I was surprised by the knock-off call and suspected the low pass myself since it was, as always, very impressive, but the low pass was not the subject of the knock-off, and after reviewing actual evidence FAA apologized, 'nuff said.

Arctic Cat
09-19-2012, 09:37 AM
JC thanks for participating, I wasn't there this year and only saw this pass in the picture in this thread. I understand this would be a DQ in the racing environment, but a single pass by an airshow performer, isn't that a little different?

JCP
09-19-2012, 11:20 AM
Nope. It's an unnecessary risk that was not needed, especially this year. All the racers were very mindful of what was at stake this year and the performers should be held to the same standard. I've personally never heard an Air Boss call a "knock it off" on an act without something going very wrong. I don't know what else it could have been.

JC

Randy Haskin
09-19-2012, 12:31 PM
I've personally never heard an Air Boss call a "knock it off" on an act without something going very wrong. I don't know what else it could have been.

As was posted earlier, it was an accusation by the FAA that they cut the corner, which was later proved false by the video.

With respect to the pass in the photo....racers don't all hold zero-altitude ACE cards like the Patriot performers do. Comparison is apples and oranges. Discussion of the FAA "slapping" anyone, given that qualification and that it is part of the normal Patriots show, is also not relevant.

So far as "unnecessary risk" during the week this year, in my approximation it was an unusually boring and conservative year. Of course, that's a good thing this time around.

JCP
09-19-2012, 07:53 PM
I have yet to see any evidence that the "knock it off" was in response to a corner cut (other than a post ) and personally find it hard to believe an Air Boss would call off the act so quickly for that. "Knock it off" is usually reserved for something VERY serious. I do see a totally unnecessarily low pass however.

I really appreciate your service to our country Randy, but with all due respect, Air Racing and Air Shows are completely different than flying in combat or for our government. I'm sure you would agree.

This is a sport called Air Racing and everything else that happens during the week between the races is the "eye candy". This is the "Reno Air Races" and unless we want it to become the "Reno Air Show" than we really need the Racing Gods to be kind in the next few years.

Having an ACE card doesn't mean Jack **** when you hit the ground. Sooo, I would call it quite relevant and indeed apples to apples. The folks that have earned Ace Cards have obviously gone through the process and proven their ability so they are able to perform certain maneuvers at Air Shows..awesome. But, we still have accidents and we still have excellent Pilots (even with ACE cards) who are no longer with us. Do I really need to remind you of two especially talented Air Racers and Ace card holders that we've lost this year and that we all admired? My point is that it can happen to the best.

Regarding the Race Pilots and Ace card holders: I know several people with ACE cards that are not even half as talented as some of the race pilots that have no interest in getting one.

I'm proud of all the racers for pulling off an "unusually boring and conservative year" as you put it Randy.......I'm glad none of them (especially the ones with ACE cards) felt the need to jeopardize our sport with unnecessary apples to apples showing off.

Fact is, most of us love flying low and really love watching low passes...but I don't know anyone in Air Racing that would jeopardize the sport by doing so at the Races. Save that stuff for the Air Shows and after 5:00pm when the Feds go home.

I love Air Show aerobatics and would even like to do more of them in my own Air Show routines, but this is Air Racing. One slip up can end it all right now. Sound judgement is imperative. Even if is does look a little "boring" to some.

JC

Randy Haskin
09-19-2012, 09:29 PM
A member of the Patriots team told me about the corner cut and how it was resolved via video review, so that's about as reliable of a source as I can think of. I can't offer some media link to back that up, unfortunately. Since the FAA's accusation ended up being unsubstantiated, I doubt we'll ever see anything in print about it, either. I'm happy to eat crow if it turns out to be something else.

The ACE card comment was in reply to your quote that, "That would be a DQ for the Unlimiteds". An aerobatic routine isn't an unlimited race -- the rules are different. I'm not claiming to have special knowledge of either; I haven't raced an unlimited, nor do I have an ACE card. The comment is no more relevant, though, than me saying that I'd be grounded permanently from the USAF for making such a low pass. While true, it still has no relevance on if it was legal or appropriate for the Patriots to do it in their routine. All of them are totally different games that have different standards and expectations.

I understand your point that, given the overall situation in terms of the event being under the microscope, it might have been smart to play it conservative.

The Patriots, however, were hired to perform their routine -- it is not the Patriots' job to manage risk for RARA. It's not like they just decided out of the blue to "show off" as you say, and spring something new on RARA when they flew their show. You and I both know that airshow performers have specific routines that are meticulously planned, rehearsed, and executed the same way, every time, to ensure both a safe performance and an entertaining performance. RARA knew what they were buying; if RARA had wanted specific elements of the performance omitted to keep the risk lower, I'm sure they could have negotiated that with the team. It's begging the question, anyway, to assume that the low pass was somehow inherently more risky than anything else they do during their routine.

It certainly wasn't in the Patriots' wheelhouse to drop elements of their performance on their own accord to reduce some perception of risk because of their concern for the future of the NCAR. That's not what professionals do. The best thing they could do was execute as clean and tight of a performance of their planned routine as was possible.

I don't want the NCAR to end any more than you do. I was extremely happy that things went the way they did, and hope that it's enough to keep the party going next year and beyond.

I just don't see how throwing stones at the Patriots over something that didn't happen is helping support that point of view. We're not throwing stones at Matt Jackson for his judgment in handing the gear issues with Furias....we're not busting on Dennis Sanders for getting caught in wake turbulence by Pylon 2 and overbanking past 90-degrees twice, on two subsequent laps in the same race. We're not questioning how Thom Richard flew three laps at race speeds without knowing a big part had come off his aircraft.

These are all things that "could" have caused something more significant to happen, but didn't. Why no furor over those?

We all want the same result here, but I just don't see how the Patriots performance introduced any more risk into the mix than anything else that happened out on the course during the week.

JCP
09-19-2012, 10:56 PM
Very Simple......

Every person and situation you mentioned involved an Air Racer involved in a situation during an [I]Air Race. Let's also not forget to mention that none of them were Black Flagged...you know, the racer equivalent of a "Knock it Off"

The Patriot's are excellent, no question......but they did not sell a single ticket and nobody really cares if they are there or not. They are the "eye candy" to fill time between races. They are not there to Jeopardize the sport that the men you mentioned work so hard to build and keep going.

As I said before..... Air Show performance ( Awesome ). But, these are the Races and every performer should respect the the fragile state of affairs of our Sport and I believe a "Knock it off" is contrary to that, for whatever the reason.

To even compare their "performance choices" to the emergency situations and known possible factors that the racers may encounter is absolutely ludicrous.... you just threw some of the best men in the business under the bus just to try to make a point at which you have failed.

Quite lame.

JC

Randy Haskin
09-20-2012, 06:22 AM
Very Simple......

Every person and situation you mentioned involved an Air Racer involved in a situation during an Air Race. Let's also not forget to mention that none of them were Black Flagged...you know, the racer equivalent of a "Knock it Off"

I agree -- none of the racers I mentioned as examples were black flagged because they didn't do anything wrong (that was exactly my point in bringing them up; quite the opposite of 'throwing them under the bus'). These were simply situations that came up that 'could have' turned into something risky but didn't.

Just like the Patriots weren't KIO'd because of the low pass that you guys are talking about that could have theoretically gone bad -- a pass they performed safely every day during their performances pretty much exactly the same way, and failed to elicit a KIO on any of them. Again, it was an FAA accusation of a corner cut which elicited the KIO, which was later proven wrong.

I get it that Reno is the "Air Races" and that one set of events occurred during a race and the other during the show between races. Like it or not, the "races" are also an "airshow", which is why those acts can perform. Like you, I don't particularly care for the airshow acts, but clearly RARA has calculated that some percentage of the viewing audience in the grandstands does, and continues to book acts every year.

If your point is, "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk," then that is a spear to throw at RARA, not at the performers. The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them. They were perfectly aware of the risks and perceptions of risk involved, and could have taken steps to change the performance if they wanted to.

JCP
09-20-2012, 11:02 AM
"If your point is, "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk," then that is a spear to throw at RARA, not at the performers. The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them. They were perfectly aware of the risks and perceptions of risk involved, and could have taken steps to change the performance if they wanted to."


Don't put words in my mouth Randy, my point was and is very clear and I've never stated or inferred "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk"

"The Patriots were hired to execute a performance, which they did. RARA knew exactly what the Patriot performance included when they booked them"

Really? I'm pretty sure that they were not hired to perform a routine that has "knock it off occurs now" written into it.

JC

Randy Haskin
09-20-2012, 11:26 AM
Don't put words in my mouth Randy, my point was and is very clear and I've never stated or inferred "there shouldn't be an airshow at Reno because it induces extra risk"

Okay, that's fair -- I apologize for incorrectly summarizing what I thought your position was.

You think that the Patriots should have changed their show for this event, then?


Really? I'm pretty sure that they were not hired to perform a routine that has "knock it off occurs now" written into it.

I agree: the Patriots don't have that written into their show, and that's not what RARA hired. The KIO was based on an FAA guy who made a on-the-spot call about a corner cut which later proved to be false in the post-flight debrief.

The system worked exactly as it should, IMHO. FAA observer made his call based on what he saw real time, and judgment was made after gathering all the information and assessing it at zero knots and one G.

flyboycpa
09-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Agree to disagree. :dunno:

Now kiss and make up. :luvlove:

You know what they say about arguments on the internet, nobody really cares and it makes you both look silly. :2thumbsdo

AAFO_WSagar
09-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Agree to disagree. :dunno:

Now kiss and make up. :luvlove:

You know what they say about arguments on the internet, nobody really cares and it makes you both look silly. :2thumbsdoFWIW, I have been enjoying this discussion by two pilots of high performance aircraft. It's been polite, IMHO and both have shown respect to the other. It's an informative discussion and is exactly the way I like to see "discussions", particularly, disagreements take place.

Randy Haskin
09-20-2012, 12:59 PM
FWIW, I have been enjoying this discussion by two pilots of high performance aircraft. It's been polite, IMHO and both have shown respect to the other. It's an informative discussion and is exactly the way I like to see "discussions", particularly, disagreements take place.

I agree...it hasn't been an 'argument'. We can absoultely disagree, and none of it is personal.

I certainly respect John-Curtiss' perspective and that he has infinitely more experience than I do flying/building/wrenching/racing warbirds.

This is no different than any other spirited friday-night discussion between airplane people over drinks. After all, isn't that the whole point of a 'discussion' forum?

JCP
09-20-2012, 04:19 PM
I totally agree that none of this stuff is personal or argumentative.

I happen to love Air Show Aerobatics and I don't think that there is a better civilian Jet Team out there than the Patriots. Well....until we see the Horseman in F-86's!

Like the man said, there is nothing wrong with a little "discussion" when it's civil. I think this has been just that, a very civil discussion.

JC

C_roundy
09-21-2012, 04:13 AM
I for one, know that I have been privileged to listen to this discussion.

Randy, John, I suppose that the best thing I can do, is to beg you guys to keep airing it out here; regardless of the differences coming in your future discussions.

I have the Highest respect for you both, and that only increases as you both continue to share your minds with us.

Thanks, and don't shy away please!
Chuck Roundy

P.S. I do get that this particular issue is mostly worked out between you two already..... :)

RAD2LTR
09-21-2012, 08:45 AM
Here are a couple pics of the low pass.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/543405_4732673601350_2116327333_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/230419_4732673961359_1937386715_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/199614_4732674241366_1336171728_n.jpg


Will

FuryFan
09-21-2012, 12:54 PM
For some of the Russian demo pilots that's practically cruising altitude!!

Kevin

Ebehne
09-21-2012, 07:54 PM
I don't think its totally fair to blame the Patriots. RARA must have known what they were getting. I know that circumstances were different this year, but I think that if RARA had specifically asked them to fly a little higher they would've and all controversy/risk could have been avoided.

It's not like they haven't done it before...The picture below was taken 9/16/2011 from ground level in the box seats.



http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx283/ebehne/IMGP7869_zpsae57e305.jpg

flyboycpa
09-24-2012, 07:01 PM
FWIW, I have been enjoying this discussion by two pilots of high performance aircraft. It's been polite, IMHO and both have shown respect to the other. It's an informative discussion and is exactly the way I like to see "discussions", particularly, disagreements take place.

No arguments there. :thumbsup:

Big_Jim
09-24-2012, 07:37 PM
For what it's worth, my son has a photo of the same pass at the JBLM Lewis-McChord show in July that is just as low if not lower....so it's certainly not something that was 'just' at Reno...nor a surprise for the FAA.

But it has been kind of fun watching you two 'debate'........

Randy Haskin
09-24-2012, 07:55 PM
Which one of us is Heat Miser and which one is Cold Miser?

GRNDP51
09-24-2012, 09:16 PM
Which one of us is Heat Miser and which one is Cold Miser?
Isn't it Jack Frost?? Haha where has this site gone?!

Bob
09-24-2012, 09:23 PM
where has this site gone?!

http://youtu.be/NdWtqlaCmy8

xmh53wrench
09-24-2012, 10:30 PM
http://youtu.be/NdWtqlaCmy8

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:
GO AIR FORCE!!!!

shorebird
09-25-2012, 08:42 AM
I don't see a thing wrong with that pass. Thats the
"show" in air show.

wingman
09-25-2012, 09:09 AM
Shorebird -- considering some of the near horizontal shots (from the ground) I have of you on the race course in several Gold Races, I can see how you'd feel that way, LOL...

And I totally agree!

Neal

Dialtapper
09-25-2012, 10:11 AM
Shorebird -- considering some of the near horizontal shots (from the ground) I have of you on the race course in several Gold Races, I can see how you'd feel that way, LOL...

And I totally agree!

Neal

You can take the boy out of the crop duster but you can't take the ......

FlyKidChris
09-26-2012, 05:13 PM
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:
GO AIR FORCE!!!!

Sure looks like an F-18 at the end of that video...

Arctic Cat
09-27-2012, 10:58 AM
I wasn't present this year, but judging by the pictures, I have no problem with the pass. I think to compare racing to airshow acts is, as Randy stated, Apples to Oranges. If we don't want airshow acts to fly low, then Sean Tucker, Kent Pietsch and several others would be a pretty boring show.

stuntflyr
09-28-2012, 08:06 PM
JCP would've had a fit if he ever saw Bob Hoover, Bob Love or Bill Fornof perform.
Chris...

51fixer
09-29-2012, 01:42 PM
JCP would've had a fit if he ever saw Bob Hoover, Bob Love or Bill Fornof perform.
Chris...
I'm sure he did.
I remember being at his parent's place one time when they were still in Calif.
Bob Love showed some home movies, his copies of gun camera footage from the Korean war.
I was just a teenager wannabe and flew up with guys from Chino.
Bill Fornoff didn't survive low level aerobatics so I don't know how you want to factor that one in.

stuntflyr
09-29-2012, 02:25 PM
Yeah,
I'm sure if Bill had been higher the wing wouldn't have come off. What was I thinking?
Chris...

Randy Haskin
09-29-2012, 06:29 PM
I don't know JCP personally, but I have to imagine given the place, people, and toys he grew up around up there, he has probably observed more high performance flying and pilots than many of us.

But let's be fair -- he wasn't having a cow over simply guys in aerobatic routines flying low.

He was specifically talking about the possible un-necessary risk posed by such a routine at Reno this year, due to it being under such scrutiny the year after the Ghost.

That it is far from meaning that he's someone who would be agitated by such a routine at other times and places.

Big_Jim
09-29-2012, 08:22 PM
Alright you two...Hacker, JCP...break it up. If you keep agreeing with each other and defending each other's right to say things....chaos is going to break out. I WILL NOT STAND FOR A MUTUAL ADMIRATION SOCIETY GROWING BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU!

AAFO_WSagar
09-29-2012, 09:49 PM
LOL Big... Randy, I'm glad you posted that... your thoughts mirror mine and I had decided to stay out of it.

I think we all understand where JCP was coming from, I tend to agree with him, in this case... but thank you for clarifying!

stuntflyr
09-29-2012, 09:57 PM
Brad,
I think the clown in your avatar looks like Frank.

Big_Jim
09-30-2012, 05:51 PM
Brad,
I think the clown in your avatar looks like Frank.

Not enough pins on his hat, Chris....

stuntflyr
09-30-2012, 07:19 PM
Good point.

JCP
10-01-2012, 04:15 PM
I just got back in the Boise Bee from the Paso Robles Air Show and decided to check in....I'm pretty sure you didn't bother to read my posts Chris, I think they were pretty easy to understand and you completely missed the point.

Thank you Randy for summarizing what I was talking about! (Hang in there Big Jim)..

Did you ever see those guys you mentioned perform Chris? I sure as hell did.......and then some.

I was even fortunate enough to watch Ray Hanna perform an acro routine at Duxford in our P-40E "Sneak Attack". That is still one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

JC

stuntflyr
10-01-2012, 06:07 PM
Yeah,
I have seen and lucky to have known all of the people I mentioned fly, that was why I specifically mentioned them. They all flew low and well.
I read all of your posts and just didn't agree with you.
But that's OK, we all have our opinions.
Glad the Mustang is flying well,
Chris...

Sky Critter
10-03-2012, 09:53 AM
There's a picture of last year's low pass on the bottom of page 133 in this year's program. Pretty sure RARA knew what they were getting.

JCP
10-05-2012, 11:44 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm still perplexed that anyone could ever confuse my opinion that an unnecessary "air show" maneuver (in my opinion) that constituted an FAA "knock it off" during the most pivotal of all years of Air Racing, which by the way was under unprecedented scrutiny by the FEDS as well as the public at large could ever be compared to Bob Hoover, Bob Love or Bill Forniff?

I respect Randy's argument and opinion because he stayed on topic (again, hang in there Big Jim!) and it made sense. As far as your assertions that I'm against the incredible performances of the men you mentioned Chris......you pulled that out of thin air. As a matter of fact, I aspire to fly as best as I am capable of, in my lifetime , to those guys. That includes my ability to fly well when flying in Air Show performances.

Do not put words in my mouth or spin the conversation I've had with Randy about the "Knock it off" into some sort of uninformed opinion about Air Show Legends.

Is this board really attracting the mind set that killed WIX?

I hope not.

JC

One last thing Chris.. I find the calus nature of your sarcastic remark about Bill's death to be beneath tasteful or respectable.

stuntflyr
10-06-2012, 11:25 AM
I was on topic, the topic was low flying while performing an airshow routine. Changing of anyone's routine is known to be a contributing factor to many accidents. Just my opinion.

My response to another's post about Bill's accident was to show that the poster was not on topic as far as the why of Bill's death. The poster seemed to indicate that because he died doing a low show it was pilot error. Since the cause was Fatal Inflight Airframe Failure, there was no difference as to how high the show was when the airframe failed.

Your rush to offense is puzzling.
Chris...

AAFO_WSagar
10-06-2012, 11:42 AM
Is this board really attracting the mind set that killed WIX?

I hope not.JC... not as long as I'm the administrator!

This is a "spirited" thread, I enjoyed the conversation between you and Randy, I certainly "got" your point!

I probably have not "policed" this thread closely enough in the interim between you and Randy and what's been happening.. I get my messages in an email digest and I just changed email programs (I was still using an old version of Qualcom Eudora for heck's sake!) and I'm probably not watching the digest closely enough as I dial in the new proggy (open source new Eudora).

If anything, I'm usually held to task for watching things TOO closely here, for the exact reasons you state, I don't want a hostile place!

Just remember the old saying "Non rectallis Carborundum" (don't let the a$$holes grind you down)..... :)

51fixer
10-06-2012, 04:09 PM
I was on topic, the topic was low flying while performing an airshow routine. Changing of anyone's routine is known to be a contributing factor to many accidents. Just my opinion.

My response to another's post about Bill's accident was to show that the poster was not on topic as far as the why of Bill's death. The poster seemed to indicate that because he died doing a low show it was pilot error. Since the cause was Fatal Inflight Airframe Failure, there was no difference as to how high the show was when the airframe failed.

Your rush to offense is puzzling.
Chris...
Actually I'm well aware of the Bearcat wing structure and the cracks that form in the Spar Webs and the threaded holes in the Spar Caps that break when overloaded. Been deep inside that area before and have even worked on the Bearcat that Corky flew when flown as part of Bob Pond's Collection. I see how the airframe will break and I'm aware of the results.
But I still don't see how those legends you brought up fit the context of this discussion. The issue isn't low flying but that this year's event was not the time and place in JCP's opinion.

440_Magnum
10-09-2012, 08:48 AM
I just finished reading this thread, start-to-finish, every single post.

Well said, all. Including Chris- I immediately understood your sarcasm about structural failure at any altitude FWIW. There is certainly merit to both sides of the discussion, and I do understand JCP's concern about this year being under extra scrutiny. I also acknowledge Randy's feeling that the Patriots shouldn't be expected to change their product unless asked to do so. Frankly I'd think that changing a routine that is so consistently rehearsed and performed would ADD risk... but that's just my view from outside a pilot's world.

But the first thing that popped into MY mind hasn't been brought up (or I somehow missed it), and that is this: Don't you think that maybe it was BECAUSE of "extra scrutiny" this year that a knock-it-off call was made (erroneously, as it turns out)? I would imagine that the feds had their fingers a little tighter on the trigger than most years and might therefore have been more prone to erroneous KIO calls. Not that this is a bad thing, necessarily, but a factor in the mix.

Arctic Cat
10-09-2012, 12:26 PM
"I'm still perplexed that anyone could ever confuse my opinion that an unnecessary "air show" maneuver (in my opinion) that constituted an FAA "knock it off" during the most pivotal of all years of Air Racing, which by the way was under unprecedented scrutiny by the FEDS as well as the public at large could ever be compared to Bob Hoover, Bob Love or Bill Forniff?"


Its been mentioned several times that the "knock it off" was NOT a result of the low pass. The FAA felt they had cut a corner, I'm guessing that was on either end of the show line. Subsequent review of the video proved that they had not cut the corner and an apology was issued by the FAA.

supercub
10-09-2012, 10:13 PM
I wasn't even aware there was a problem with the Patriots this year. Actually that low pass would be considered a HIGH flyby in a Super Cub. On the serious side, I've seem the Patriots perform numerous times and have always enjoyed their show. They fly a nice tight show and it's always very entertaining.........however, one thing that bothers me, is how much practice do they actually get. The military teams practice for months prior to the airshow season. The Patriots are from all over the country, plus Canada.......how often are the able to get together to practice. I know they're all experienced pilots, I'm not questioning their individual abilities, and I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just wondering. I'm also curious where they practice. I know they're based out of Byron Airport.
If you liked that low pass you should have seen them at Miramar a few years ago when they flew formation with the Fry's Electronics 747sp. The 747 made a low pass that ..........well, lets just say, even in a super cub, it would have been low ;)
Brian