Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

[SkyvanDelta]

Just read the story about Czech Mate going off the runway into the dirt years ago. So why is a safety net not available at the end of each runway which could be quickly erected if there is an emergency? Something similar to what you use to see on Aircraft Carriers that would stop landing airplanes if they missed the cables?

Seems like it would be a lot cheaper than loosing an airplane or pilot because they can't stop and go off the end of the runway into the dirt.

[Leo]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

The barrier traps I have seen pictures of do as much damage (or more) as a ground loop. Most of the time MUCH more. Nobody has gone off yet (knock on wood) so they seem to have a pretty good symbiosis between pilot, pace and the need to stop!

Maybe some kind of arresting gear but then you have weight and complexity and drag added, unless you are already in a stocker Sea Fury...
I've seen films of drag systems, basically weighted cables or chains that snag a hook or the gear. The films I've seen, however, demonstrated nothing but failures (some QUITE dramatic) so I don't know if any system worked.
Kinda like the ejector seat ideas for racers, I think the return would not equal the cost.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

The 'barrier' is to prevent a damaged aircraft from going off of the end of a 500 foot canted-deck and into the water.

The 14/32 at Reno is 9,000 feet long. 08/26 is 7,600 feet long. If you can't stop your mayday aircraft in that length, you have a lot worse problems to consider.

Of the planes that I remember going off the runway and being damaged over the last 40-some years, virtually all of them were purely pilot-error. Mike Loening and Bill Whittington both landed 'long', down-wind. David Price was way too hot and had to land over the top of Crocker's plane that was stopped dead-nuts center of 14/32 and only had about 4,000 feet of 'usable' runway by the time he touched down.

That's not to criticize the pilots, mind you...I was in the pilot briefing Sunday morning in 1998 when Sherman Smoot de-briefed everyone on the Czech Mate crash the day before and admitted that he had made mistakes (mainly not pushing the prop forward soon enough to slow the plane down), and if he had to do it over again he would have done a, b, c... differently. In a mayday sometimes things go wrong.

But to keep it in perspective, think of the HUNDREDS of emergency landings that have been executed over the years without going into the over-run or pucker bushes. To install a barrier for something that the odds are so miniscule would be a waste of money.

[SkyvanDelta]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

If you can't stop your mayday aircraft in that length, you have a lot worse problems to consider.

Sherman in Czech Mate went off the end of the runway due to a normal inflight type emergency, blown engine, smoke in cockpit... I wonder if he had the option to either go into a net or go off the end of the runway which would he have chosen and which would have done the least damage to the aircraft?

He is the article on his inflight emergency: http://aafo.com/racing/news/98/smoot.htm

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

I was in the far, right corner of the Mil display area when Czech Mate made the overrun, about as close as one could get to the incident and still be within the roped-off spectator area.

He came in quite hot and was well down the runway when he touched down. As soon as he did, I could see he was going too fast to stop in time with the runway he had left, and shouted as much to my companions.


Flat pitch or not, I don't see any way he could have avoided the overrun, even if he had a drag chute. He was going that fast and had that little pavement in front of him. Only landing further up the runway would have given him a chance, though whether or not he HAD the opportunity to land further up is unknown to me.

But I do not believe he did, as seen from my location. It's a close call.


.

[Big_Jim]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

His own words, guys. I don't really care if you think it was a "normal, in-flight emergency" (obviously you're not a pilot who has ever had one of those, because "normal" does not ever apply to an emergency), or if you think that from your vantage point it didn't look like the prop would have helped him slow down. Remember what happened to the RB-51 when the blades went to flat pitch? Same thing happens when you push the prop forward...it causes a huge amount of drag. Pilots use it all the time as a way to slow the aircraft down during landing.

This is an excerpt of Sherman Smoot's EXACT words (as I recorded both his and Buckwheat's briefings to the other Unlimited pilots, and published the transcript in an article I wrote for World Airshow News WITH THEIR PERMISSION):


SMOOT:...so I pulled up...and when I pulled up, I continued decelerating and then I just rememberd in the back of my mind about Buckwheat yesterday or the day before when he was talking about the prop (the runaway during qualifying) , so I pulled the prop back and it kept going uphill. The cockpit filled up with smoke and I couldn't see where I was, and meanwhile I was sure that I could pick up downwind for 14, so I kind of caught a break there. I opened up the canopy. I looked and I saw the runway, and I actually crossed the runway over the end...and I thought about doing a 270 turn, but then I just said to myself "You know, if I did, I'm not sure if I'm going to make it." So I threw the flaps, or I mean I threw the gear down...did some very high speed turns to get my speed down. I think it was about 160 kts when I threw the gear.

STEVE HINTON: No, you were at 250 kts when you threw the gear.

SMOOT: Was I? So then I put the flaps down and started to get rid of the energy, and then of course, by that time I was committed. I think in retrospect that I should have pushed the prop back forward because that would have helped slow me down a whole lot quicker. I don't know how fast I was when I touched down. I'd like to think I was, you know, at about 150 kts.

As I said in my last post, when an emergency happens, sometimes things go wrong. Notice that Smoot thought he was at 160 knots when he threw the gear. He was almost 100 mph off in his assessment. I'm not pointing fingers or second guessing what he did...but no matter how you look at it, it is pilot error. IN HIS OWN WORDS.

[SCEPTER]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

I seem to remember a bi-plane overrun in 2002.

[AirDOGGe]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

...or if you think that from your vantage point it didn't look like the prop would have helped him slow down. Remember what happened to the RB-51 when the blades went to flat pitch? Same thing happens when you push the prop forward...it causes a huge amount of drag. Pilots use it all the time as a way to slow the aircraft down during landing.

I guess by that first sentence that this was directed at me. If not, this attempt at clarity still applies.


I have no argument with Sherman's statement, although I DID find a conflicting quote from him in another article on the incident, so I suppose accuracy depends on the reporter. More on that conflict at the bottom of this post.

And I'm well aware of how a prop control works and that flat pitch creates significant drag, even if I have never handled a propeller pitch-control lever personally. Knowledge doesn't usually require personal experience to obtain it.

I'm ALSO aware that drag increases exponentially with velocity, and in turn decreases an equal amount when speed is reduced. That's simple physics... Aerodynamics-101 stuff.

This significant loss of drag at lower speeds is why the Space Shuttle Orbiter dropped it's drag chute once it slowed to 60 kts. Below that speed, the parachute, a device capable of producing MUCH, MUCH MORE braking force that any propeller could at any pitch angle, had so little braking effect and was more of a threat to crosswinds than a useful slowing device by that time.


While in flight at 160 kts as described, yes, the propeller can have a HUGE effect on drag, as Mr. Hinton experienced so unpleasantly (RB had 50% more blades to slow it down, but the effect is similar enough).

On the ground, slowed to 80 kts or slower as the runway end approached oh-too-quickly, prop braking forces are only 1/4 or less then that experienced at 160 knots.


I'm pointing this out because I was stating in my previous post that I believe, from what I observed personally, that going to flat pitch after he landed wouldn't have prevented the overrun, due to the drag of flat-pitch blades having far less effect at the velocity he was going before leaving the pavement, which I would estimate at 60 kts or so. though I admit it may have only appeared to be going that fast (any NTSB reports with estimated speeds around?).



I THINK the misunderstanding here is that I was thinking of pilot actions taken after landing, while after re-reading Mr. Smoots statement, I now believe he was saying he should have adjusted the propeller to a flatter pitch WHILE STILL IN FLIGHT. I agree that if he had done this AND still had enough speed to land without hitting the runway like a brick, then he may have touched down slow enough to stop in time....Maybe.

I say 'maybe' because, either way, he WAS moving at a pretty damn fast clip when he passed me.

.


ANYWAY, as to that conflict in statements I mentioned earlier, THIS ARTICLE quotes Mr. Smoot as saying;

"...Smoot thought that if he crossed above the runway, he would not have enough airspeed or altitude to make it. He had just put the gear down, so he decided to go for the runway without crossing over. "I pulled around, blew the flaps down, pushed the nose over and pushed the prop back up to add drag," he says as his hands move invisible controls."


That last bit of text shown in bold text would seen to conflict with his statement in the other article where he says he SHOULD HAVE pushed the prop back up.


It's all good. Just confusing...


.

[Randy Haskin]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

The "rabbit catcher" barriers are not a panacea. I know of at least one T-38 crew that was killed when they ran off the end of the runway and into the stanchions that hold up the barrier.

Engaging the barriers, too, is a risky business that often results in collapsed gear or other damage. A T-38 crew I know had a high speed abort, and engaged the barrier at about 30 knots and about 6 feet off centerline. It spun the aircraft around more than 180 degrees and caused the mains to collapse and damage the wing too.

Other times, the barriers collapse on top of the aircraft after they engage it, and the straps can cover the canopy and preclude getting out of the aircraft until someone comes along and frees them (particularly bad if the aircraft happens to catch fire).

[Big_Jim]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

II have no argument with Sherman's statement, although I DID find a conflicting quote from him in another article on the incident, so I suppose accuracy depends on the reporter.
.

But the difference here is that the AAFO article that was brought up for reference were Sherman talking to Wayne (though perhaps it was Mark K) well after the fact.

My quote came from Sherman talking to his fellow unlimited pilots the following morning at the pilot briefing...in an environment where you don't hold anything back because you want your fellow pilots to learn from your mistakes.

What you tell the public is going to be what you want them to hear. When Art Vance tells you to get up in front of your peers and tell them what you did wrong....that's going to be much closer to the truth.

[Leo]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

Just my $.02
Things happen very fast in an emergency. Decisions are made quickly and sometimes what seems perfect at that moment is not correct a few seconds later as events unfold. There were a few articles in Warbirds written by warbird pilots that dealt with events and it was real eye opening reading.
The few times I was faced with an "emergency" (I flew sailplanes where an "emergency" was a rope break or loss of lift forcing an off-airport landing. Loss of lift is actually pilot error though) it was difficult to stop the process of second guessing yourself about the actions you were taking. A lot of adrenaline running through you. The key to saving the moment as best you can is to commit to an action and stick to it UNLESS it becomes impossible. A lot of pilots die trying to stretch a glide or changing landing spots and turning low and slow.
I would rather face an overun than fall short!

[Arctic Cat]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

The reasons that there is not an overun net at the end of the runway are:
1. Money
2. As Randy pointed out it may stop the plane, but then it creates a whole new set of safety issues.
3. The damage that will be incurred to the airplane will be as great or greater than the damage from the over run.

[AAFO_WSagar]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

But the difference here is that the AAFO article that was brought up for reference were Sherman talking to Wayne (though perhaps it was Mark K) well after the fact.

Yep, memories are what they are... honest truth, I can't remember who spoke to whom in that article, my email records from that era are spotty, also could have been by phone, so original text and dates are not exactly clear in my pea brain..

I truly don't think this a case of accuracy of reporting, or telling of the story; Sherman was under a ton of pressure, probably a bit, hate to use the word "scared".. let's say, his attention was pretty well focused on staying alive as the main goal. His exact memories of what happened, in which sequence, was, obviously, a bit off... (Steve Hinton's comment about his speed).

I will say this though... through the fact that we've been able to keep this site going on a dedicated server all these years, and have lost little of the historic data (some message board stuff lost over the years but none of the actual published content was ever lost) it's nice that we have these moments archived for history's sake and can read back and remember the day.

And, yes, although somewhat defrayed by the google ads you generously enjoy visiting when you're interested in the content, the server costs a ton each month and yes again, we do love it when the donate button is hit.... Sometimes, we even make enough $$ via the donate button to help out a friend in need.

[stuntflyr]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

But the difference here is that the AAFO article that was brought up for reference were Sherman talking to Wayne (though perhaps it was Mark K) well after the fact.

My quote came from Sherman talking to his fellow unlimited pilots the following morning at the pilot briefing...in an environment where you don't hold anything back because you want your fellow pilots to learn from your mistakes.

What you tell the public is going to be what you want them to hear. When Art Vance tells you to get up in front of your peers and tell them what you did wrong....that's going to be much closer to the truth.

Brad, Brad, Brad...

[tim]

Re: Why is a Safety Net not available at the end of the runways at Stead?

Just my $.02
Things happen very fast in an emergency. Decisions are made quickly and sometimes what seems perfect at that moment is not correct a few seconds later as events unfold. There were a few articles in Warbirds written by warbird pilots that dealt with events and it was real eye opening reading.
The few times I was faced with an "emergency" (I flew sailplanes where an "emergency" was a rope break or loss of lift forcing an off-airport landing. Loss of lift is actually pilot error though) it was difficult to stop the process of second guessing yourself about the actions you were taking. A lot of adrenaline running through you. The key to saving the moment as best you can is to commit to an action and stick to it UNLESS it becomes impossible. A lot of pilots die trying to stretch a glide or changing landing spots and turning low and slow.
I would rather face an overun than fall short!

Quite right.
The single point of information I have on safety nets was watching the Bridges at Toko Ri. As I recall the "safety" was really for the people on the other side of the net. I think they parked a tractor on the other side as well, just to be sure. The time required to set up the net was pretty long as well.