After that little segment I guess I'll talk to my Congressman & tell him about me being in Alaska on the DEW line for a year without toilets, showers,no running water on & on.In fact no one should have to fight for our country anymore becuase its not healthy. Another 4yrs. of this BS & you can kiss our USA goodbye. Sorry for venting on this subject.
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After that little segment I guess I'll talk to my Congressman & tell him about me being in Alaska on the DEW line for a year without toilets, showers,no running water on & on.In fact no one should have to fight for our country anymore becuase its not healthy. Another 4yrs. of this BS & you can kiss our USA goodbye. Sorry for venting on this subject.
Lockheed Bob -
Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
I missed it, but it seems like there would be a big gap between not being able to take a dump or a shower comfortably, and plowing into the ground at 500mph in an F-22 in a semi-conscience state of mind from lack of oxygen.
What exactly did they say? Can you elaborate?
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
I would watch the episode on-line. I thought it was fair. After the planes were ungrounded, they had charcoal canisters installed in the O 2system. Pilots ended up getting charcoal dust in their lungs. They developed the "Raptor Cough" . Raptor pilots are buying more life insurance, and not just one.... Many pilots report bad effects after a day's flight. Some have been in hypobaric chambers. One pilot hit a tree and didnt know it. Some pilots have o2 sensors on their fingers like we get at the doctors office.
Their concern is not just for themselves....if the plane crashes, who is it gonna hit?
I dont know much about planes...I am an A&P and a pilot but I still dont know much. But I was an electronic tech all my life. I would take ten planes and put sensors all up and down the O2 system and on the pilot and have remote telemetry and a recording black box. Am I missing something? How hard can it be? A magic box takes compressor bleed air, makes O2, and sends it to the pilot. This is either contamination or lack of 02. I bet it is the later....the new filters they will install should prevent contamination, instead of poisoning the pilots like the last filters. I would appreciate someone with more savy than I piping in and telling me what would be so hard about installing an 02 sensor and pressure gages/sensors in the system with telemetry. How else you gonna fix this?????
Last edited by Coyote Chris; 05-06-2012, 07:51 PM.Comment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
From todays yahoo article on the subject.
"Capt. Jeff Haney was flying the Air Force's next-generation stealth F-22 Raptor on a routine training mission in Alaska in November 2010 when a sudden malfunction cut off his oxygen completely. Capt. Haney never made a distress call but took his plane into a dive and, a little over a minute later, crashed into the winter wilderness at faster than the speed of sound.
After a lengthy investigation, an Air Force Accident Investigation Board could not find the cause of the malfunction but determined "by clear and convincing evidence" that in addition to other factors, Haney was to blame for the crash because he was too distracted by his inability to breathe to fly the plane properly."
Talk about priorities, fly or breathe, breathe or fly. If you are up high, I guess you should worry about breathing, if you are low, then you should worry about flying. Regardless of where you are, it's a matter of seconds or minutes that you better get something squared away with your breathing system or you won't be flying or breathing.
They could have also re worded it and said:
Haney was to blame for the crash because he was too distracted by his inability to fly the plane properly due to the fact that he was unable to breathe.
Here's the link to the 60 minutes story: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...tag=pop;videosLast edited by SkyvanDelta; 05-07-2012, 02:40 PM.Comment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Originally posted by Coyote Chris View Post
I may be incorrect, but I thought the Raptor's system creates oxygen chemically using oxygen generators like those used in airliners for emergency decompression cases, and didn't use engine bleed air to create OXY.
Am I wrong? I don't know for sure but I THOUGHT I read that somewhere. Straighten me out if I'm not flying level, please. I haven't found any details on the F-22's oxy system at all.Comment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
^^^^^^
That was my understanding....
I hope they figure this out, my son-in-law is just about to enter AF basic flight school in the hopes of an F-22 control stick and throttle...Fledgling Air Race and P-51 JunkieComment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
You can watch the description of the o2 system here...
F-22 PILOTS GO ON TV TO HIGHLIGHT AIRCRAFT'S PROBLEMS
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#206646)
Two Air Force F-22 Raptor pilots have taken the unprecedented action
of explaining thier refusal to fly the aircraft to a national
television audience. Appearing in uniform and without the permission
of their superiors, Maj. Jeremy Gordon and Capt. Joshua Wilson told 60
Minutes
(http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_16...in;contentBody)
interviewer Lesley Stahl they've invoked federal military
whistleblower protection in their open defiance of an Air Force
decision to keep flying the aircraft even though they say the majority
of pilots are suffering health problems because of something wrong
with the oxygen system. Some, including both Wilson and Gordon, have
become disoriented in flight, something that happens at a rate that
far exceeds the norm for military aircraft. The officers say pilots
have been issued oxymeters and the Air Force briefly equipped the
Raptors with charcoal filters in the oxygen system to remove
contaminants (the filters themselves caused some pilots to cough up
black mucus and have since been removed) but nothing has been done to
solve the actual problem.
F-22 PASSES MILESTONE, CRITICS DEBATE WHICH ONE
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#206641)
The last of 187 Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor fighter jets was delivered
to the U.S. Air Force, Wednesday, provoking new debate about the jet's
usefulness, cost and ongoing safety concerns. Since listed as
combat-ready in 2005, not a single $420 million F-22 has flown a
combat mission in any U.S. military engagement, including Iraq,
Afghanistan and Libya. They have spent nearly five months of their
service grounded due to yet unresolved concerns surrounding the system
that delivers oxygen to the jets' pilots. And a few pilots now say
they'd prefer not to fly the jet for that reason. In exercises, the
F-22 consistently records lopsided wins when pitted against America's
best jet fighters. But that hasn't silenced the jet's critics, which
include Senator John McCain.
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Watching the video brought another question to my mind:
The "filter" applied to solve the problem looks off the shelf.
That being,who else is inhaling carbon particles ?
(Isn't this almost the same as "black lung"?)(old coal miner issue)
Is anyone looking into it's "failure" ?
......I served.
I do now however, have moments of question as to some of what I was supporting/involved in. (this incident is not alone in raising these questions in my mind.)
........just some thoughts from an individual,who is part of the whole.Mayday51
Jim GallagherComment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Thank you for serving. I have always supported our men and women who, like the Vietnam vets, followed orders and did the president's bidding. That doesnt mean that I dont pray every night that human garbage like LBJ, Bill Moyers and McNamara rot in hell and burn for eternity for faking the Gulf of Tonkin incident to fund that useless war, where you couldn't bomb a civilian constructing a SAM site but you could bomb the site after it shot at you....Originally posted by mayday51 View Post
But the issues here are quite different. During the Civil War, contractors and politicians were sleeping together, sharing huge government contract profits, and supplying inferior products to our military...in some cases dangerous rotten food. Later, those folks did the same thing in supplying food to the native Americans on their new reservations.
I still stand by my challange. There is a magic box in this airplane that makes O2 at the right pressure, O2 content, and cleanliness level. Put sensors on the output of the box and on the pilot. When things go south, set off the alarms, record the data, and switch on the backup system. It aint that hard....and if it isnt being done, then we should ask ourselves what political/military industrial complex forces are at work here that are causing issues?
Think I am a conspiricy geek? Look into the congressional investigations of who in the military sabotaged the M16 project and put an inferior rifle with a changed, faulty design into the hands of our soldiers in Vietnam.Comment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Speaking of the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident'... one of the ships I served on was DD-731, the USS Maddox, years after the 'incident'.
DD-731 Info & Pictures http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/s...sh-m/dd731.htm
F-22... Probably hearsay, but read (somewhere...didn't bookmark the site) that a coolant was found to be leaking into the system. Will try to find the url.
added... http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/02/28/f-...gun-not-found/
BobLast edited by Tibia; 05-08-2012, 01:56 PM.Comment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Thanks Bob, very interesting....I do have a question about the Maddox....you dont have to give your rank or job at the time, or if you feel like you are still held to the security act, you dont have to answer...but do you remember CIA types bordering your ship after the "incident" and "reminding" people in no uncertain terms that they were not to say anything about what happened? As near as I can tell, it is possible that all ships in the area were not boarded....Originally posted by Tibia View PostComment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
During the short duration I spent aboard her, nothing seemed to be out of the ordinary. Remember, this was years after the incident. She had already been transferred to the reserves. Interesting that you bring up the secrecy issue. Looking back, the incident was never a topic of discussion.
BobComment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Whoops...my bad...you were on her later....you still might read wiki about it adn her and the interesting articles about the coverups in the links...Originally posted by Tibia View Post
After reading this again, I have to wonder how mentally stable LBJ was.Comment
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Re: 60 Minutes F22 Pilots Refusing To Fly
Thanks. Very interesting reading
Still alot more reading to go.
In another article, one of the other ships I spent time on which I 'thought'.. nah, make that 'assumed', to have a stellar record when in fact was not so stellar.
USS DeHaven DD-727
BobComment
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